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Not necessarily. If you live in southeast Atlanta and are a huge proponent of the Clifton corridor transit project, it's not your community, and it's for people commuting through...
You compare southeast Atlanta to the Clifton corridor transit project, but what about actual people a long the Clifton corridor area? Again your highlighting the problem.
Your ignoring the actual community and focus more people commuting first.
Making area more pedestrian friendly helps that community, Widen roads and etc does the opposites. The problem is walkablity would be local concern people half way across the metro wouldn't care if another part of metro is. So it would be ignoring part of neighborhoods local concerns in favor for people communing. That where the entitlement comes from.
People feel that other entitle to have wide roads in other neighborhoods and entitle there better be lots of parking.
See your thinking transit could only benefit people commuting to a neighborhood but actually it would benefit the travel to neighborhoods because there could be less cars.
Also Sitting traffic for 10 mins because some one lives in a neighborhood is a lot different sitting traffic 30 mins to over a hour because your commuting. Traffic is way worst of a hustle for people commuting because they don't actual live by so they're wasting more time.
So what I'm addressing where is the self responsibility, ............... Commuting and traffic should be part of someone decision where to live...... You can't live in Dallas county but Work in the Gwinnett but have the nerve to complain about roads and traffic...... Where moving away from ideal that this person did this to themselves. That there no consequences for bad choices but don't worry the Government will them bail them,
As for reducing lanes, this isn't going to work especially without a sufficient transit network. Also keep in mind that even when transit is available, transit will never ever beable to suit everyones lifestyle and needs especially for families with children, there are many people who simply put HAVE to drive.
As for Atlanta's road network, and lane capacity comparisons to other metros... As Sami was stating, Atlanta is designed much differently than many major metros in the aspect that its extremely sprawled and its fairly rural in sections between.
I went to Houston about 3 times within the last 3 weeks and although Im not a huge Houston fan, I have to give them props on their highway network...
In Atlanta, it would be Saturday or Sunday, I would leave Gwinnett at around 11am, to hit I-85 and between GA-316 and I-285 its gridlock and a standstill...ON A WEEKEND...and this isnt happening just once or twice this is every single weekend... same goes for I-285 top end and west side...
Houston wasn't fun driving through during Rush Hour at all...but their highways were more than ample to handle weekend traffic...and even if one wasn't, there was always atleast three other routes you could take.
Atlanta does need higher capacity transit and more transit options without a single doubt, but don't begin to believe that reducing road capacity is suddenly going to make Atlanta a better place to commute.
Oh and... as for Atlanta having more lane capacity than other cities...The issue I have with this is...Atlanta's super sized highways don't really go to where commuters are trying to get to. Where as many other metros focus on smaller but more redundant highways that service several districts, Atlanta's take you to the general area then you have to wind through several suburban arteries to get to where you're going.
You compare southeast Atlanta to the Clifton corridor transit project, but what about actual people a long the Clifton corridor area? Again your highlighting the problem.
Your ignoring the actual community and focus more people commuting first.
You are touching on a critical point. Our transportation planning (such as it exists) gives way too much priority to commuters over the people who actually live in the area. Local residents who make their homes in an area should come first, not cut-thru commuters coming from far off locations.
As for reducing lanes, this isn't going to work especially without a sufficient transit network. Also keep in mind that even when transit is available, transit will never ever beable to suit everyones lifestyle and needs especially for families with children, there are many people who simply put HAVE to drive.
As for Atlanta's road network, and lane capacity comparisons to other metros... As Sami was stating, Atlanta is designed much differently than many major metros in the aspect that its extremely sprawled and its fairly rural in sections between.
I went to Houston about 3 times within the last 3 weeks and although Im not a huge Houston fan, I have to give them props on their highway network...
In Atlanta, it would be Saturday or Sunday, I would leave Gwinnett at around 11am, to hit I-85 and between GA-316 and I-285 its gridlock and a standstill...ON A WEEKEND...and this isnt happening just once or twice this is every single weekend... same goes for I-285 top end and west side...
Houston wasn't fun driving through during Rush Hour at all...but their highways were more than ample to handle weekend traffic...and even if one wasn't, there was always atleast three other routes you could take.
Atlanta does need higher capacity transit and more transit options without a single doubt, but don't begin to believe that reducing road capacity is suddenly going to make Atlanta a better place to commute.
Oh and... as for Atlanta having more lane capacity than other cities...The issue I have with this is...Atlanta's super sized highways don't really go to where commuters are trying to get to. Where as many other metros focus on smaller but more redundant highways that service several districts, Atlanta's take you to the general area then you have to wind through several suburban arteries to get to where you're going.
This goes back to my point
People don't have to far often drive they want to drive, they making the choice to live far from there job and etc. You know fault that is...... it's there fault............ not the city or gov fault but there fault....
Your focus is making a better place for commuter,........ Not commuter should be making better choices. That life style has "consequences" but as a society we have become careless and irresponsible.
A 100 years ago people where not living that far from there job and etc. Now people do it because responsibility is out the window and people expect no consequence for it. So traffic does not come from the lack of responsibility of making bad choices, apparently there's no such thing as bad choices, but rather it's the fault of another city for not entitling you to wide roads, parking lots and etc making there community less pedestrian friendly and etc.
Now I do think Atlanta need better roads, Yes........... but there no need to point out or even caring about Houston and LA over obsessive road network and culture. Metro Atlanta is layed out more similar to Boston, DC and etc who don't have the obsessive roads like them either. So why look at Houston and LA when it makes more sense and more possible Atlanta could develop like metro Boston, DC and etc?
When we talk about our relationship with the automobile we need to clarify what kind of driving we're talking about.
On the one hand you've got zillions of short, local trips for shopping, school, dining, socializing, etc. These trips probably make up the bulk of the driving that is done. They are not limited to "peak hours" and they often take place on local streets where congestion is not a major issue.
That's quite different from heavy-duty, rush-hour "get out on the freeway" voyages of 15 miles or more.
These different types of driving call for different solutions.
Also keep in mind that even when transit is available, transit will never ever beable to suit everyones lifestyle and needs especially for families with children, there are many people who simply put HAVE to drive.
Not just in regards to cars but many other things too: it is very interesting to me how many things that have only existed for ~100 years or less has suddenly become "NEEDS" and "HAVE to HAVE". I do think society and individual how important and necessary some of these things really are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Need4Camaro
Atlanta does need higher capacity transit and more transit options without a single doubt, but don't begin to believe that reducing road capacity is suddenly going to make Atlanta a better place to commute.
It is important to acknowledge that reducing road capacity is not being done just to be mean to drivers and force them into other alternatives against their wishes. It is being done to give that space to alternative transportation modes. That could be light rail, bikes, pedestrians or buses.
Unfortunately it is not possible to have it all. Space in cities is finite and we need to start allowing some of the space dedicated for cars and car storage to be used for higher capacity transportation options and urban housing.
Atlanta is still decades away from considering large areas where car are prohibited like other cities are doing, so you will still be able to drive and park within a reasonable walking distance of of your destination for the foreseeable future. But you may start to find instead of sitting in 6 lanes of traffic on the way there you are instead stuck in traffic in 2 two lanes next to free flowing bike lanes and light rail. Then once you get to your destination you may find that instead of a free surface parking space right at the front door you now need to pay $10 to park around the corner. You may find that driving there is now the less attractive option after these changes happen, but it is not because the intent was to make driving worse but because the intent was to make other alternatives & the overall capability of the transportation system better and that requires trade offs.
People don't have to far often drive they want to drive, they making the choice to live far from there job and etc. You know fault that is...... it's there fault............ not the city or gov fault but there fault....
Your focus is making a better place for commuter,........ Not commuter should be making better choices. That life style has "consequences" but as a society we have become careless and irresponsible.
A 100 years ago people where not living that far from there job and etc. Now people do it because responsibility is out the window and people expect no consequence for it. So traffic does not come from the lack of responsibility of making bad choices, apparently there's no such thing as bad choices, but rather it's the fault of another city for not entitling you to wide roads, parking lots and etc making there community less pedestrian friendly and etc.
Now I do think Atlanta need better roads, Yes........... but there no need to point out or even caring about Houston and LA over obsessive road network and culture. Metro Atlanta is layed out more similar to Boston, DC and etc who don't have the obsessive roads like them either. So why look at Houston and LA when it makes more sense and more possible Atlanta could develop like metro Boston, DC and etc?
What if people can’t affird to live around corner from their job?
That is an excellent point that the lack of both surface and controlled/limited-access arterial routes often motivates motorists to drive down residential streets to attempt to get around traffic congestion on the few major arterial routes there are, particularly within the I-285 Perimeter.
The Georgia Department of Transportation actually did attempt to build new controlled-access arterial routes both inside and outside of the I-285 Perimeter in past decades.
After the initial construction of GA 154-166 Lakewood Freeway and the Interstates ITP (Interstates 75, 85 and 20) and their devastating effects on Intown neighborhoods, GDOT's attempts to build new controlled-access arterial routes inside of the Perimeter were largely thwarted by a public backlash against continued freeway construction ITP led by the Freeway Revolts of the 1960's, 1970's and 1980's.
Because of the MARTA rail transit line that was constructed in its median that was a favorite with otherwise anti-superhighway transit activists and because of the determination of the real estate development community to push the project to fruition, the Georgia 400 Extension ITP of the early 1990's was the only exception to the lack of new freeway construction after the public backlash and freeway revolts of the 1960's-1980's... And even the GA 400 Extension ITP came with a very high political cost that eventually helped lead to Georgia Democrats falling completely out of political contention when the public revolted against the increasingly unpopular Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc freeway proposal of the late 1990's and early 2000's.
Because many area residents and local, regional and national environmental groups view much of the Atlanta metro area/region and North Georgia as being part of the heavily wooded foothills of the Blue Ridge and Southern Appalachian mountains region, it often can be exceedingly difficult (if not just outright impossible) for government (particularly at the state level) to proceed on large-scale road construction projects like the never-built ITP extensions of the Stone Mountain Freeway, I-675, and I-420 as well the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc.
(...National environment groups view the North Atlanta suburbs and exurbs as the last line of defense against the encroachment of heavy development on the beloved Blue Ridge/Southern Appalachian mountains wilderness region of North Georgia, Western North Carolina and Eastern Tennessee and have demonstrated that they are willing to fight tooth-and-nail to the death to keep new roads like the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc from being built... Something which further complicates any attempted to build new superhighways outside of the I-285 Perimeter in metro Atlanta and North Georgia.)
The Freeway Revolts against almost all continued freeway construction ITP during the 1960's, '70's and '80's pretty much assured that there would be no new large-scale road construction projects ITP after the completion of the ITP Georgia 400 Extension in 1993 and Freedom Parkway back in 2000...
...While the fierce public backlash and revolt against the proposed Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc highway back in the late '90's and early 2000's (and resulting massive political meltdown of the Democratic Party that it contributed heavily to) pretty much assured that new large-scale road construction projects OTP likely would be far and few between after the Turn of the Millennium.
Also, in regards to I-85... The state and the Feds likely would never agree to build a new alignment of I-85 just simply because the current alignment of I-85 runs directly past the world's busiest airport and directly and indirectly connects that facility with the central business districts (Downtown, Midtown, Buckhead, etc) of a top-10 major metro area/region in Atlanta.
The state and Feds likely also would never agree to build a new alignment of I-85 through Intown West Atlanta because of the exceptional political difficulty of proposing to run a new freeway through predominantly black Intown neighborhoods like Bankhead, West Lake, Mozley Park, Westview and the S.W.A.T.S. ("South West Atlanta Too Strong").
I know that the lack of roadway infrastructure and the extreme reluctance to build new roadway infrastructure in the Atlanta area can be extremely frustrating for motorists, especially for someone like you who comes from a state like Texas where there seems to be very little hesitation to build new roadway infrastructure as might be needed.
But that is one of the quirks about living in metro Atlanta and North Georgia... The public just does not like or respond well to large-scale road construction proposals in North Georgia.
ITP and Intown residents take pride in fighting large-scale road construction projects tooth-and-nail and even to the death, if needed, while OTP residents will fiercely fight anything that they think might disturb or destroy their beloved North Georgia Blue Ridge/Southern Appalachian foothills scenery.
I know that there are lots of possible examples of irony with those lines of reasoning against new road construction, but that generally is the way it is in North Georgia.
This is what is so unfortunate about the perception of new highways here:
NEW INTERSTATE & HIGHWAY CONSTRUCTION ALMOST NEVER PLOUGHS THROUGH EXISTING NEIGHBORHOODS (contrary to the images conjured up with the very mention of it here in Atlanta).
NC is currently building/designating over 10 new interstates for future better connectivity, commerce, GDP, etc.
Corridors through mostly undeveloped or unproductive land are SET ASIDE ABOUT 20 YEARS IN ADVANCE that limits what can be built and is good advance notice to nearby property owners.
Do you think the public here would accept the designation of a corridor for I-75 or I-85 that completely avoids metro Atlanta as a long range plan to separate multi-state interstate users from local commuters ?
Citizens would have 20 years to warm up to the idea.
I still believe the local traffic shouldn't be sharing our expressways with through state traffic since Florida (already 3rd most populous) is expected to add 8-9 million more people in the next 20 years.
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But here is an example of GDOT's inaction that paralyzes the area which most other states would have identified and taken action long ago. (I have emailed GDOT several times about this):
Buford Hwy/Spring Connector heading South is backed up all the way to Sidney Marcus on weekdays at 2pm, arguably when it should be flowing at its best.
Why? because the exit to get on I-75/85 Downtown Connector (which is perpetually backed up) don't have a queue lane for people get out of the way for those heading into midtown.
AND, what was built as a 2 lane exit ramp and formerly had 2 lanes, it is currently striped as one lane thus exacerbating the problem.
If traffic is backed up an entire mile during the low point of weekday traffic & the problem is BLATANTLY OBVIOUS...
GDOT should have a shovel-ready solution to the problem whether funding is available or not.
Other DOTs around the country are out identifying and studying problem spots & developing solutions.
1) At minimum that ramp should return to being 2 lanes which would get 10 more cars out of the way of those heading into midtown. Easy improvement.
2) Though a lot of work, the overpasses right at the exit should be modified to accommodate a queue lane running underneath, and some rock needs to be blasted on the right shoulder to allow for a queue lane.
Other options are to close that ramp altogether for build a new flyover for those getting onto 75/85 South.
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A 1 mile backup in the middle of the day due to inadequate and dangerous ramps (Piedmont exits are dangerous & sub standard).
DOING NOTHING ISN'T AN OPTION, especially when merely restriping ramp would help a little.
Also the many routes under GDOT's responsibility are as dilapidated as ever, like Ponce de Leon, the hottest corridor around, which the signal ahead signs, lane signs, haven't been addressed or replaced in 30 years.
I have been trying to get the sun-backed faded shields and lane arrows on Lenox Rd at Buford Hwy replaced for 7 years, still nothing.
What if people can’t affird to live around corner from their job?
What if they switch jobs and hare already bought?
If driving really is the best option for your life, great, keep on driving. No one is going to stop you from driving if you feel you really "need" to because of where you live and work. But it is not guaranteed that it is the quickest or most affordable option nor should it be.
DOING NOTHING ISN'T AN OPTION, especially when merely restriping ramp would help a little.
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We are doing something, prioritizing higher capacity transportation options over cars. Widening highways & new creating new highways in the city is simply not a realistic nor affordable option. And even if it were you will never be able to widen enough to satisfy the demand in a major growing city.
Reality is, traffic will never go away(unless we put congestion tolls in place). New roads might make it appear better in the short term but will only make it worse in the long term as people adapt to fill it.
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