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This is what is so unfortunate about the perception of new highways here:
NEW INTERSTATE & HIGHWAY CONSTRUCTION ALMOST NEVER PLOUGHS THROUGH EXISTING NEIGHBORHOODS (contrary to the images conjured up with the very mention of it here in Atlanta).
Yeah, that may currently be the case, but the metro Atlanta/North Georgia public still has an extremely bad taste in their mouths after the initial construction of the Interstates decimated many densely developed existing ITP/Intown neighborhoods back in the 1960's.
The metro Atlanta/North Georgia public (particularly voters in the affluent metro Atlanta suburbs and exurbs) also still has an extremely bad taste in their mouths over how the Georgia 400 Extension was rammed through affluent (and some not-so-affluent) ITP neighborhoods in Buckhead and Sandy Springs back in the early 1990's.
That demonstration of a new superhighway being rammed through developed existing neighborhoods (including some very affluent neighborhoods in Buckhead and Sandy Springs as well as a historic black freedmen's settlement in Buckhead that dated back to just after the Civil War) for the benefit of real estate speculators with the construction of Georgia 400 back in the early 1990's set the stage for the public to oppose the proposed Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc in the late 1990's and early 2000's on the grounds that existing outer-suburban and exurban neighborhoods would be disrupted and destroyed by the project.
Heck, Forsyth and Cherokee counties went so far as to intentionally permit new residential development directly in the proposed right-of-way of the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc so as to make construction of the superhighway much more difficult, if not outright impossible. Cherokee County even permitted the construction of a new high school (Creekview High School) directly in the path of the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc after the road was cancelled so as to insure that the road would never be built.
While Gwinnett County was cooperative in preserving and keeping the right-of-way clear of development for the proposed road, other Northern Arc counties like Forsyth, Cherokee and Bartow had no intention of ever cooperating with the State of Georgia so that the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc could be constructed through their areas.
Quote:
Originally Posted by architect77
NC is currently building/designating over 10 new interstates for future better connectivity, commerce, GDP, etc.
Corridors through mostly undeveloped or unproductive land are SET ASIDE ABOUT 20 YEARS IN ADVANCE that limits what can be built and is good advance notice to nearby property owners.
Do you think the public here would accept the designation of a corridor for I-75 or I-85 that completely avoids metro Atlanta as a long range plan to separate multi-state interstate users from local commuters ?
Citizens would have 20 years to warm up to the idea.
I still believe the local traffic shouldn't be sharing our expressways with through state traffic since Florida (already 3rd most populous) is expected to add 8-9 million more people in the next 20 years.
Setting aside land 20 years in advance probably would only serve to give the metro Atlanta/North Georgia public 20 years to oppose, slow down and ultimately derail whatever superhighway the State of Georgia was proposing to build.
Though I do not think that the Feds would ever take the I-75 and I-85 designation off of their current routings through Atlanta, maybe, just maybe, such a proposal to construct a bypass or outer loop for through traffic could be shepherded to fruition if a high-ranking state official like the governor got behind the proposal and was determined to push it through.
The challenge would be when the opposition to the project labels it a second, bigger reincarnation of the unpopular "Outer Perimeter" superhighway proposal from the late 1990's/early 2000's and makes accusations that the road would be an attempt for developers to profit off of yet more sprawl... Accusations of sprawl-generation that helped to turn the public opinion of metro Atlanta and North Georgia voters decisively against the proposed Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc.
Atlanta definitely needs a way to take through and long-distance traffic off of the local freeway system, but if such a proposed roadway gets labeled a new "Outer Perimeter," it will be awfully difficult to get the road built over the objections of a highly superhighway construction-averse metro Atlanta/North Georgia public.
Quote:
Originally Posted by architect77
But here is an example of GDOT's inaction that paralyzes the area which most other states would have identified and taken action long ago. (I have emailed GDOT several times about this):
Buford Hwy/Spring Connector heading South is backed up all the way to Sidney Marcus on weekdays at 2pm, arguably when it should be flowing at its best.
Why? because the exit to get on I-75/85 Downtown Connector (which is perpetually backed up) don't have a queue lane for people get out of the way for those heading into midtown.
AND, what was built as a 2 lane exit ramp and formerly had 2 lanes, it is currently striped as one lane thus exacerbating the problem.
If traffic is backed up an entire mile during the low point of weekday traffic & the problem is BLATANTLY OBVIOUS...
GDOT should have a shovel-ready solution to the problem whether funding is available or not.
Other DOTs around the country are out identifying and studying problem spots & developing solutions.
1) At minimum that ramp should return to being 2 lanes which would get 10 more cars out of the way of those heading into midtown. Easy improvement.
2) Though a lot of work, the overpasses right at the exit should be modified to accommodate a queue lane running underneath, and some rock needs to be blasted on the right shoulder to allow for a queue lane.
Other options are to close that ramp altogether for build a new flyover for those getting onto 75/85 South.
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A 1 mile backup in the middle of the day due to inadequate and dangerous ramps (Piedmont exits are dangerous & sub standard).
DOING NOTHING ISN'T AN OPTION, especially when merely restriping ramp would help a little.
Yeah, as you probably know, that Buford-Spring Connector (Georgia 13) was the original roadway for the I-85 Northeast Expressway until the new I-85 Northeast Expressway was completed back in the late 1980's and GDOT kept the existing roadway in use as an access road for the new roadway... So GDOT probably isn't planning on doing much to improve the Buford-Spring Connector even though they clearly should make some key improvements.
We are doing something, prioritizing higher capacity transportation options over cars. Widening highways & new creating new highways in the city is simply not a realistic nor affordable option. And even if it were you will never be able to widen enough to satisfy the demand in a major growing city.
Reality is, traffic will never go away(unless we put congestion tolls in place). New roads might make it appear better in the short term but will only make it worse in the long term as people adapt to fill it.
Ok, well then, since your over-simplistic reply is against adding any capacity to the roads that carry our food, clothing, shelter-constructing materials,
you need to halt all efforts to grow and increase the tax base immediately.
The problem on Buford/Spring/ Connector isn't about adding new lanes or roads.
It's a modification to keep an existing road functioning at all (the exiting cars block the thru cars) relieving a bottleneck.
Which endeavors is the state prioritizing that move so many more people?
And why does that excuse them from making improvements to roads?
If you're really fine with the dangerous 60's era entrances/exit ramps at Piedmont Rd. on Buford/Spring/ connector, then no wonder we expect/get so little from those running our city and state.
Of the 6 other states I've lived in, I can promise they are managed by more conscientious people.
I didn't mention all the trash that's a permanent eyesore along this area, that could be picked up by someone in the back of a pickup that never comes to a stop.
Literally this stretch could be kept free of large pieces of litter with 15 minutes of effort by 2 workers.
Do you really believe the 8th most populous state can/should rationing their efforts to one thing at the expense of another?
I'm all for heavy rail expansion & ambivalent about light rail extensions, but..
it would take continuous conveyor-belt of train cars to move more people than our roads.
Roads should be improved and capacity expanded if-warranted because if you keep waving in companies and new residents you must accommodate them or it lowers the quality of life for everyone.
Road construction is for adding capacity not "solving congestion".
Our gridlock translate to bilions and billions in lost productivity.
The 15 minutes I sat on the road last Monday just added pollution, reduced my consumer spending ability, etc. and wasn't productive.
Ok, well then, since your over-simplistic reply is against adding any capacity to the roads that carry our food, clothing, shelter-constructing materials,
you need to halt all efforts to grow and increase the tax base immediately.
Not true. They will continue to use our existing road network just like they do everywhere else in the world even places that have done far more aggressive road diets that Atlantans would ever imagine.
The traffic apocalypse is overhyped. People will find alternatives and goods will still get delivered. We need to focus on capacity and to do that we need to alternatives that are more efficient than roads.
Quote:
Originally Posted by architect77
it would take continuous conveyor-belt of train cars to move more people than our roads.
That is kind of how trains work. One light rail lane can handle as much capacity as a 12 laned highway (and heavy rail can do multiple times that).
When we are talking about things like adding light rail along the Beltline or to Emory you got to imagine that is the same as a 12 laned highway right to the front door of these destinations. Complaints about transit vehicles being mostly empty are quite ridiculous because they are simply a testament to how much capacity transit has.
There is no way you are getting a 12 laned highway thru both sides of intown Atlanta and Emory, but with options like light rail we can add the equivalent capacity in a smaller space.
That should also show why road diets / giving up car RoW for alternatives makes so much sense. If you could turn two lanes on a road into the equivalent of twelve lanes without needing to encroach into anyone's front yard or take a single sq ft of emanate domain, why are we not doing that for every road that is reaching capacity? We should.
Quote:
Originally Posted by architect77
Road construction is for adding capacity not "solving congestion".
Our gridlock translate to bilions and billions in lost productivity.
The 15 minutes I sat on the road last Monday just added pollution, reduced my consumer spending ability, etc. and wasn't productive.
Roads / cars alone will never be able to satisfy the capacity for people in a large city.
Your 15 wait in traffic and those "bilions and billions in lost productivity" will only get worse and worse. Roads simply cannot do the job alone.
As for reducing lanes, this isn't going to work especially without a sufficient transit network. Also keep in mind that even when transit is available, transit will never ever beable to suit everyones lifestyle and needs especially for families with children, there are many people who simply put HAVE to drive.
As for Atlanta's road network, and lane capacity comparisons to other metros... As Sami was stating, Atlanta is designed much differently than many major metros in the aspect that its extremely sprawled and its fairly rural in sections between.
I went to Houston about 3 times within the last 3 weeks and although Im not a huge Houston fan, I have to give them props on their highway network...
In Atlanta, it would be Saturday or Sunday, I would leave Gwinnett at around 11am, to hit I-85 and between GA-316 and I-285 its gridlock and a standstill...ON A WEEKEND...and this isnt happening just once or twice this is every single weekend... same goes for I-285 top end and west side...
Houston wasn't fun driving through during Rush Hour at all...but their highways were more than ample to handle weekend traffic...and even if one wasn't, there was always atleast three other routes you could take.
Atlanta does need higher capacity transit and more transit options without a single doubt, but don't begin to believe that reducing road capacity is suddenly going to make Atlanta a better place to commute.
Oh and... as for Atlanta having more lane capacity than other cities...The issue I have with this is...Atlanta's super sized highways don't really go to where commuters are trying to get to. Where as many other metros focus on smaller but more redundant highways that service several districts, Atlanta's take you to the general area then you have to wind through several suburban arteries to get to where you're going.
A perfect example of the latter-try to get from Druid Hills to Perimeter Mall. Clifton/Briarcliff/LaVista/Cheshire Bridge/Buford Hwy to 400 and then you crawl along 400. Perimeter Mall is in the same county, but its very difficult to get to.
When we talk about our relationship with the automobile we need to clarify what kind of driving we're talking about.
On the one hand you've got zillions of short, local trips for shopping, school, dining, socializing, etc. These trips probably make up the bulk of the driving that is done. They are not limited to "peak hours" and they often take place on local streets where congestion is not a major issue.
That's quite different from heavy-duty, rush-hour "get out on the freeway" voyages of 15 miles or more.
These different types of driving call for different solutions.
Which gets back to zoning (yes there is a separate thread). Atlanta metro's restrictive zoning and endless cul-de-sacs require you to drive a good distance to get to those various retail outlets.
This is what is so unfortunate about the perception of new highways here:
NEW INTERSTATE & HIGHWAY CONSTRUCTION ALMOST NEVER PLOUGHS THROUGH EXISTING NEIGHBORHOODS (contrary to the images conjured up with the very mention of it here in Atlanta).
NC is currently building/designating over 10 new interstates for future better connectivity, commerce, GDP, etc.
Corridors through mostly undeveloped or unproductive land are SET ASIDE ABOUT 20 YEARS IN ADVANCE that limits what can be built and is good advance notice to nearby property owners.
Do you think the public here would accept the designation of a corridor for I-75 or I-85 that completely avoids metro Atlanta as a long range plan to separate multi-state interstate users from local commuters ?
Citizens would have 20 years to warm up to the idea.
I still believe the local traffic shouldn't be sharing our expressways with through state traffic since Florida (already 3rd most populous) is expected to add 8-9 million more people in the next 20 years.
---------
But here is an example of GDOT's inaction that paralyzes the area which most other states would have identified and taken action long ago. (I have emailed GDOT several times about this):
Buford Hwy/Spring Connector heading South is backed up all the way to Sidney Marcus on weekdays at 2pm, arguably when it should be flowing at its best.
Why? because the exit to get on I-75/85 Downtown Connector (which is perpetually backed up) don't have a queue lane for people get out of the way for those heading into midtown.
AND, what was built as a 2 lane exit ramp and formerly had 2 lanes, it is currently striped as one lane thus exacerbating the problem.
If traffic is backed up an entire mile during the low point of weekday traffic & the problem is BLATANTLY OBVIOUS...
GDOT should have a shovel-ready solution to the problem whether funding is available or not.
Other DOTs around the country are out identifying and studying problem spots & developing solutions.
1) At minimum that ramp should return to being 2 lanes which would get 10 more cars out of the way of those heading into midtown. Easy improvement.
2) Though a lot of work, the overpasses right at the exit should be modified to accommodate a queue lane running underneath, and some rock needs to be blasted on the right shoulder to allow for a queue lane.
Other options are to close that ramp altogether for build a new flyover for those getting onto 75/85 South.
---------
A 1 mile backup in the middle of the day due to inadequate and dangerous ramps (Piedmont exits are dangerous & sub standard).
DOING NOTHING ISN'T AN OPTION, especially when merely restriping ramp would help a little.
Also the many routes under GDOT's responsibility are as dilapidated as ever, like Ponce de Leon, the hottest corridor around, which the signal ahead signs, lane signs, haven't been addressed or replaced in 30 years.
I have been trying to get the sun-backed faded shields and lane arrows on Lenox Rd at Buford Hwy replaced for 7 years, still nothing.
NC is currently building/designating over 10 new interstates for future better connectivity, commerce, GDP, etc.
Where in the heck does North Carolina get the money for all these new interstates? Do we just need to go ahead and jack up the gas tax?
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