Which Failed Expressway Would Help Traffic Today (Atlanta, Marietta: 2015, school)
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Side note, I think they should rename the Civic Center station to Civil Rights Center station, and have new station entrances on Ivan Allen Blvd.
That station needs to be oriented more to its south, as a station serving the Ivan Allen/Ralph Mcgill corridor and buses on that corridor. As it is, it's just plain too close to North Ave station and too far from Peachtree Center station.
Combined with a freeway cap there with the Stitch proposal, new development with that, as well as new development replacing all those parking lots south of Ivan Allen, that could be made to be a new hot area of downtown.
I would get rid of that street parking lane thing, and move the 4 lanes over a few feet, freeing up more sidewalk space on the right there. Probably get rid of those planters.
Then maybe some kind of new covered canopy over the sidewalk area at least, with new MARTA signage, at least giving it sort of an entrance at Ivan Allen. And I think that 401 W Peachtree building could integrate better with the sidewalk.
Then with the Stitch, maybe they could do some kind of pedestrian green space bridge thing, over Spring St, tying Centennial Park to the Stich park area and the MARTA station:
I dunno exactly, but I think you could definitely make some improvements around there, and some new station access points. Obviously the actual station platform would still be in the same location, built over the freeway.
You can't stop development short of zoning. And some of these ideas reduce the usefulness of the road. It shouldn't ONLY be for through traffic. But if you build it like inner 400 where there are no access roads, that is helpful. In Texas all the freeways have access roads which make them, not just a thruway, but also a destination. That is what you don't want.
You can definitely build the Outer Loop as a through road by providing all the services and rest stops in the median like the Florida Turnpike. By doing that, you get rid of the highway exits lined with fast food restaurants and signs pointing you to new homes starting at $300k. The communities against the highway get to keep their rural character, and we get all that Florida-bound traffic off of 285 and the Connector.
You can definitely build the Outer Loop as a through road by providing all the services and rest stops in the median like the Florida Turnpike. By doing that, you get rid of the highway exits lined with fast food restaurants and signs pointing you to new homes starting at $300k. The communities against the highway get to keep their rural character, and we get all that Florida-bound traffic off of 285 and the Connector.
Building an Outer Loop highway with very limited exits so as to attempt to limit development along the highway is a good idea.
The problem is that the exurban and rural communities that the highway would run through don’t believe for one second that they would get to keep their rural character in an Atlanta region and a state in Georgia notably (if not often notoriously) dominated by real estate and land development interests.
Most Georgians very understandably believe that any new proposed Outer Loop (which most likely, if not most assuredly would instantly get labeled a new ‘Outer Perimeter’) would be to benefit and enrich development interests... Which very likely would make such a proposed highway a very hard sell to the North Georgia voting public very early on.
... Which is what happened with the original Outer Perimeter proposal in the late-1990’s and early-2000’s, when the highway was proposed to have very limited exits but was quickly rejected by the North Georgia voting public when it was discovered that members of the Roy Barnes gubernatorial administration owned land around junctions where future exits could be placed along the road after the road was built.
As soon as a new Outer Loop highway would be proposed, most metro Atlantans and North Georgians most assuredly would think that land developers were intimately involved with the public push for its construction.
Which the extreme skepticism that such a road would actually be for the benefit of the voting public and not for the benefit of developers who would use the road to make traffic issues even worse is one of the major reasons why Georgia politicians don’t think that it is worth it to support a road project that they would have to expend so much political capital on just to attempt to get built in the face of relentlessly fierce opposition which has a track record of successfully defeating large-scale road construction proposals that they don’t like.
As soon as a new Outer Loop highway would be proposed, most metro Atlantans and North Georgians most assuredly would think that land developers were intimately involved with the public push for its construction.
Which the extreme skepticism that such a road would actually be for the benefit of the voting public and not for the benefit of developers who would use the road to make traffic issues even worse is one of the major reasons why Georgia politicians don’t think that it is worth it to support a road project that they would have to expend so much political capital on just to attempt to get built in the face of relentlessly fierce opposition which has a track record of successfully defeating large-scale road construction proposals that they don’t like.
Just look at how those old boys down in Rutledge have reacted to encroachment on their hunting and fishing territory by Rivian. Start talking about putting in another perimeter and multiply that by a thousand.
Building more roads / freeways won't help travel. Coming from Houston and Dallas, more lanes will help traffic initially, but this encourages more people to drive, and eventually traffic returns to normal or gets worse (induced demand).
The best way to help traffic is induced demand, but for every other mode of transport. When you make it easier to travel by public transportation, biking or walking, (or put stuff in closer distances to people) it takes cars off the road, easing travel. And I don't just mean more trains and buses. BRT, traffic signals that prioritize buses, separate paths and bigger sidewalks for pedestrians, all that.
All that said, I think the outer perimeter would be the best highway out of the ones proposed.
Houston / DFW actually do a fairly good job at mitigating induced demand by constructing mostly toll roads which tend to curve the amount of people who can feasibly use those highways unnecessarily. Induced demand is a thing, but it is also heavily over played. Natural Growth is a real phenomena. Atlanta, Dallas and Houston have incurred explosive growth over the past several decades and obviously along with that will come additional traffic. Add onto the fact that not everyone wants to live in a dense environment. Nor are the amenities (good schooling, larger housing) available to families with reasonable affordability in intown developments. Its great for singles or couples without children wanting to be near the vibe and close to work, but it doesn't work for everyone. In fact, I would actually go on to say that the free market has largely allowed the appropriate housing types per actual desirability and demand for that housing.
I do agree that All three cities should focus on increasing regional mobility in more ways than just roads, but I do not believe in restricting roads only to prioritize transit methods, nor do I agree with restricting transit to prioritize roads. I think dutiful planning on both is necessary to build a wholesome transit network.
Building more roads / freeways won't help travel. Coming from Houston and Dallas, more lanes will help traffic initially, but this encourages more people to drive, and eventually traffic returns to normal or gets worse (induced demand).
Yeah, but, in this case, I-285 was completed in 1969, when the whole Atlanta metro was 1.1 million people, which was mostly within that loop. Now, it's 6.1 million, and it's sprawled out over a much larger area, so effectively there's really no loop or bypass for the metro.
The induced demand part of it was the growth and subsequent traffic in the first couple of decades. But you can't not build anything for 50+ years for a population growth of that magnitude. That doesn't make sense.
Quote:
The best way to help traffic is induced demand, but for every other mode of transport. When you make it easier to travel by public transportation, biking or walking, (or put stuff in closer distances to people) it takes cars off the road, easing travel. And I don't just mean more trains and buses. BRT, traffic signals that prioritize buses, separate paths and bigger sidewalks for pedestrians, all that.
This I definitely agree with.
Since the state and governments and transit agencies mostly never seem to do a damn thing in Atlanta (whether we're talking roads, transit, or any of it), really the best hope is private real estate development, replacing low density with high density and increasing walkability so that at least some people don't have to deal with the horrendous traffic.
Seems to me the lowest hanging fruit, easiest opportunity in that regard, is the areas around all of the existing MARTA stations. There should be 100 stations, there's only 38 (and half of them are not in ideal locations), but at least there's still a whole lot of room and opportunity for a lot of increased urbanization around most of those. And not just the station parking lots and across the street, but the whole area within walking distance of the station.
And yeah, if they could make some relatively inexpensive changes to the existing streets and roads that make transit and pedestrians first class (along with cars). But that requires them actually envisioning it and actually doing it.
I think they should make the right lane of any road that's at least 3 lanes in each direction (like most of Peachtree Rd, for example), into a transit-only lane, that still allows cars to use for making right hand turns, and allows emergency vehicles to use as well. They have a lot of those here in Seattle. Seems like a good compromise.
That plus road diets in general, signal prioritization for buses, wider sidewalks, better and safer crosswalks, bike lanes, more buried utilities and fewer things obstructing pedestrians, etc.
And I'd seriously reduce the bus routes and stops literally in half, or more. Make them all straight line corridor routes and BRT-like and frequent, not meandering loopy routes that go everywhere. And no stops every block, and no stops that are just a pole planted in some dirt. Quality and speed over quantity.
And then the managed lanes I think could be a great opportunity, if they really do it right and go all-in and emphasize express commuter buses.
Yeah, but, in this case, I-285 was completed in 1969, when the whole Atlanta metro was 1.1 million people, which was mostly within that loop. Now, it's 6.1 million, and it's sprawled out over a much larger area, so effectively there's really no loop or bypass for the metro.
The induced demand part of it was the growth and subsequent traffic in the first couple of decades. But you can't not build anything for 50+ years for a population growth of that magnitude. That doesn't make sense.
This I definitely agree with.
Since the state and governments and transit agencies mostly never seem to do a damn thing in Atlanta (whether we're talking roads, transit, or any of it), really the best hope is private real estate development, replacing low density with high density and increasing walkability so that at least some people don't have to deal with the horrendous traffic.
Seems to me the lowest hanging fruit, easiest opportunity in that regard, is the areas around all of the existing MARTA stations. There should be 100 stations, there's only 38 (and half of them are not in ideal locations), but at least there's still a whole lot of room and opportunity for a lot of increased urbanization around most of those. And not just the station parking lots and across the street, but the whole area within walking distance of the station.
And yeah, if they could make some relatively inexpensive changes to the existing streets and roads that make transit and pedestrians first class (along with cars). But that requires them actually envisioning it and actually doing it.
I think they should make the right lane of any road that's at least 3 lanes in each direction (like most of Peachtree Rd, for example), into a transit-only lane, that still allows cars to use for making right hand turns, and allows emergency vehicles to use as well. They have a lot of those here in Seattle. Seems like a good compromise.
That plus road diets in general, signal prioritization for buses, wider sidewalks, better and safer crosswalks, bike lanes, more buried utilities and fewer things obstructing pedestrians, etc.
And I'd seriously reduce the bus routes and stops literally in half, or more. Make them all straight line corridor routes and BRT-like and frequent, not meandering loopy routes that go everywhere. And no stops every block, and no stops that are just a pole planted in some dirt. Quality and speed over quantity.
And then the managed lanes I think could be a great opportunity, if they really do it right and go all-in and emphasize express commuter buses.
I agree with most all of this. My mom came to visit from Houston once, and we were on 285. She was like "wait - atlanta only has one loop?" and it hit me. Meanwhile, she lives on the northern side of where the Grand Parkway in Houston is now.
I am also all for road diets and prioritizing pubtran. I often think to myself "north ave, 10th, 14th, and 17th mostly take people from West midtown to midtown. Surely we could close one off and make it transit only?" and take other measures like that over the city.
Hell even the "pedestrian scramble" theyre piloting at 10th and piedmont is a tiny step in the right direction. I don't understand why they need to test it and why they can't just do it.
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