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>It burns me up to see UT crawling with foreign students when qualified Texas students can't get in
Um..How do you know a UT student is a foreigner and not a US citizen? Do you have any official stats or are you judging by color of skin?
You may also be forgetting that most Ph.D programs in top universities have disproportionately high number of well qualified foreigners. This is what makes our universities top notch -- great talent and research.
On in-migration concerns: I dont get the argument. We want Austin to have a strong economy, which requires continous creation of new jobs. If local talent cannot fill these jobs, business has to attract non-texans. I think non-texans bring great diversity, talent and experience and this is why Texas continues to enjoy economic success.
I'm looking at the numbers. I'm not actually on campus to see them 'or the color of their skin' Those days are far, far behind me. Thank goodness. According to the UT website:
UT wide for Spring 2007, this is the makeup of UT school wide.
56.2 percent white (from 57.2 in spring 2006)
0.5 percent American Indian (from 0.4 percent)
3.9 percent African American (from 3.7 percent)
14.6 percent Asian American (unchanged)
15.1 percent Hispanic (from 14.4 percent)
8.9 percent foreign (from 8.8 percent)
0.7 percent unknown (from 0.9 percent)
80% of students are from Texas and 20% are from out of state (10.2%) and international (8.9%).
I think its just a sense that their state and economy is being overwhelmed by newcomers. The recession will exacerbate this scapegoating, but its just human nature. They see the traffic, constantly changing neighborhoods, and such, and it is a large change for them, and they are simply overwhelmed by all this, and properly so. These newcomers would feel the same way if THEIR states were overwhelmed by all these things, and THEY were footing the tax bill for that infrastructure as well. Let's face it, its a lot to ask for them to accept it with complete equinamity and loving, open arms. You certainly can't expect them to blow kisses at you and give loving hugs to all who move in.
Again, this was very well said. I think we're already at the point of turning a cold shoulder to newcomers! We're experiencing a crazy influx of migrants to Austin and Texas. Not just illegal immigrants coming here from South America, but from all over the country. Neither is healthy for the state. What do native Californians think about what happened to their state over the last 50 years? Most of them wish more would have been done to prevent it's demise. We learn from our past and from our mistakes, don't we? We certainly don't want to re-live what California went through here in Texas! The problem is, a lot of the people that made California such a mess are now looking for "greener pastures" and now doing the same here (i.e. greedy developers, "investors", etc). If our government can get smart about it, we can limit the growth and have far more successful results than California has.
I'm looking at the numbers. I'm not actually on campus to see them 'or the color of their skin' Those days are far, far behind me. Thank goodness. According to the UT website:
UT wide for Spring 2007, this is the makeup of UT school wide.
56.2 percent white (from 57.2 in spring 2006)
0.5 percent American Indian (from 0.4 percent)
3.9 percent African American (from 3.7 percent)
14.6 percent Asian American (unchanged)
15.1 percent Hispanic (from 14.4 percent)
8.9 percent foreign (from 8.8 percent)
0.7 percent unknown (from 0.9 percent)
80% of students are from Texas and 20% are from out of state (10.2%) and international (8.9%).
A lot of the "those from Texas" kids aren't actually from here. If they came here a couple of years before enrolling in college, they're considered "from Texas." I think we should tighten up the rules and consider all of those who haven't lived in the state of Texas at least 5 years to be considered "out of state." That way, they have to pay higher tuition and face limited numbers of slots, hence, not competing with "true Texans." I don't think our public universities should reserve more than 5-10% of available slots for out of state/international students.
I agree, the '10% rule' is counter productive, and needs to go. The only problem, though, is reserving slots at the university for residents (however that is defined) accomplishes the same thing - putting students in the university regardless of the actual qualifications.
What happens if the price of tuition goes up for oos, and in state requires 5 years, and then the university continues ot 'fill up' with oos students? Sure, the university is making more money, but the residents still don't get in, necessarily. And what if you reserve slots for in-state (no 10% rule) and 20,000 kids want to go there? There is always going to be a selection criteria.
Anyway, any kind of 'reservation' system will eventually dilute the quality of the university. The 10% rule will do this, eventually, because there are quality students getting left out, and possibly mediocre students getting left in. Yes, employers put a premium on certain institutions, but if we dilute it enough, sure, we can do away with that as well . The 'flagship' universities will be just as average as all the others.
Quote:
As for international students, those kids may possibly look better on paper (in the sense they are super specialized in one area), but they are not 'better' than US students. I don't put down American kids like that...so many people buy into that, and that's not fair.
I am not putting down US students, but the foreign students that do come here for an education have often had a better education, or made use of the education they had. We are looking at a very small percentage of the foreign students that are out there (obviously), often the very brightest and most motivated. They pay a significant amount of money to go to school here (no instate tuition options, really). Sure, it is 'only on paper' that they know how to do math, answer science questions, and have some vague understanding of history and economics. They also end up going to get higher degrees and sometimes becoming citizens and contributing significantly to our country.
I am not putting down US students, but the foreign students that do come here for an education have often had a better education, or made use of the education they had. We are looking at a very small percentage of the foreign students that are out there (obviously), often the very brightest and most motivated. They pay a significant amount of money to go to school here (no instate tuition options, really). Sure, it is 'only on paper' that they know how to do math, answer science questions, and have some vague understanding of history and economics. They also end up going to get higher degrees and sometimes becoming citizens and contributing significantly to our country.
I reject the idea that international students get a 'better' education than American kids. The most committed and hardworking American students are just as good, and in my opinion better, than the same pool of international students. We only see the 'academic superstar' students who come from overseas, we don't see the burnouts and dropouts. At UT I remember that most of the international graduate students there where heavily subsidized by their home countries.
every person in the country feels that Texas is the place to move to.
Everyone just wants to move here
Holy exaggeration, Batman!!
The California University system went through much of the same growing pains that the Texas system is now enduring. It does force students to work their hardest in order to get into the best schools ... and no matter where you come from, that's how it should be! Employers don't automatically hire the candidates that live closest to their office building, why should higher education be any different?
If it makes you feel any better, my husband, a native Austinite (And UT Masters graduate) who has only lived out of Texas for 3 years, and myself, a native Californian, are moving back to Texas in less than 2 months. My daughter is graduating from high school in June and has decided to move back to Texas with us and go to college there. She will be attending ACC for a couple years then trying to get into a better University. Even though she will technically be a Texas resident on the day that she registers for ACC, because she hasn't lived there at least one full year she has to pay 'non-resident' tuition ... meaning her per semester tuition will go from about $900 to a whopping $4500 per semester for her first two semesters ... at a community college.
So please ... spare me the "it's not fair" indignation. Not only is it fair, IT IS PROFITABLE!
I reject the idea that international students get a 'better' education than American kids. The most committed and hardworking American students are just as good, and in my opinion better, than the same pool of international students. We only see the 'academic superstar' students who come from overseas, we don't see the burnouts and dropouts. At UT I remember that most of the international graduate students there where heavily subsidized by their home countries.
I agree with you entirely. We do pretty much only see their superstars, and we can benefit greatly from them. So they are paid for by their home country...it is one of the few trade balances that probably tips our way. We also get to 'Americanize' a portion of the world population....maybe they will stay an apply their talents here. If they don't go to school here (because there is some prohibition), than they will yield nothing of value to us, and probably end up competing against us (if we are in to the us vs them approach). Sure, some go back home, but some do not and many develop some sort of, if not attachment, then an understanding.
However, to assume that all our HS students, or even just the top 10% or some other fraction, are better than their best is not true.
Monetarily, only about ~$500/year/captia goes to UT, much less than what goes to the lower level public schools. Yes, that is a signifcant amount of money, but it is not like UT is driving residents to the poor house and then giving it all away to non-tax paying citizens. Tuition still covers the bulk of it.
That was well said! All this migration is simply overwhelming the system and it's extremely noticeable! Our quality of life is suffering because everyone wants to move here to improve their quality of life. What about OUR quality of life? Why should my kids be packed into a portable building like sardines because you want a bigger house for less? Your greed is ruining our quality of life. Plain and simple.
I give credit to AT for at least telling it like he feels. And I'm sure many others feel the same way. And, truth be told, I've heard it from people firsthand on more than one occasion, to myself. As I've mentioned, I'm not from here originally as well. It just isn't fair to anyone, new or long-established. And there is no perfect way to go about it. It just takes its own course, as we are free to move where we please, and we seem to expect the areas we move to to adapt/grow with us in lockstep. It doesn't usually work out like that, and leads to many PO'd residents. For every AT, there are hundreds who feel that way that don't know about city-data, but would say the same thing if they were on here. On the other hand, I don't think AT will scare any relocatees from coming here on city-data. The process and vectors are long set in place. Austin is the "hot" place on every ranking, and everyone and their pet dog wants to move here ASAP. Now, the good news is that it will slow down sooner or later, and give the city and locals a chance to catch up and breathe. When? Who knows? It will probably make the city a better and wealthier place in the future, but right now, its in an awkward, pants-floods hand me downs, gangly in-between stage. That stage is hard for all to deal with. It will be far better on the other side, and things will catch up and be more even-keeled eventually. It'll end up being all good.....trust me on this!
I agree, the '10% rule' is counter productive, and needs to go. The only problem, though, is reserving slots at the university for residents (however that is defined) accomplishes the same thing - putting students in the university regardless of the actual qualifications.
What happens if the price of tuition goes up for oos, and in state requires 5 years, and then the university continues ot 'fill up' with oos students? Sure, the university is making more money, but the residents still don't get in, necessarily. And what if you reserve slots for in-state (no 10% rule) and 20,000 kids want to go there? There is always going to be a selection criteria.
Anyway, any kind of 'reservation' system will eventually dilute the quality of the university. The 10% rule will do this, eventually, because there are quality students getting left out, and possibly mediocre students getting left in. Yes, employers put a premium on certain institutions, but if we dilute it enough, sure, we can do away with that as well . The 'flagship' universities will be just as average as all the others.
I am not putting down US students, but the foreign students that do come here for an education have often had a better education, or made use of the education they had. We are looking at a very small percentage of the foreign students that are out there (obviously), often the very brightest and most motivated. They pay a significant amount of money to go to school here (no instate tuition options, really). Sure, it is 'only on paper' that they know how to do math, answer science questions, and have some vague understanding of history and economics. They also end up going to get higher degrees and sometimes becoming citizens and contributing significantly to our country.
I hear that many of the foreign students, particularly the Asians, are going back to their countries with the degrees and knowledge, and creating companies that US companies will eventually play the outsourcing game with. So its a very convoluted situation. No one mandates that they stay in the US and contribute to the american economy. And at one time they did, before China, India, and such became Bangalorefied and Shanghaified, and became the next great thing for companies looking to get rid of their US "high cost" workers, along with their legacy packages and cumbersome OSHA and EPA regs, and jack the stock prices up, creating untold wealth for a select few, and penury for the remaining masses. So, we are essentially subsidizing outsourcing with our tax dollars, and barring the slots from local kids who plan on living here a lifetime, along with their lifetime tax contributions and possibly their OWN start-up companies. At least the out-of-staters aren't going to pack up after the degree and move to New Delhi.
Last edited by scongress1234; 04-18-2008 at 02:28 PM..
Tougher than ever for Texas students to get into college | News for Austin, Texas | kvue.com | Top Stories (http://www.kvue.com/news/top/stories/041708kvuecollegerace-eh.71b01e58.html - broken link)
This article points out just another problem Texans face because of all this growth. Basically, because everyone and their mother wants to move to Texas, there's becoming a real problem with our kids being able to get into the college of their choice. There are only a certain number of Texas colleges/universities and I don't think it's fair that all these new people moving here have just as good of a chance of having their kids admitted to a school that our kids do, in Texas. Those of us who have lived here our whole lives, paid taxes here our whole lives, supported the economy here our whole lives, are now going to have to compete with implants for seats at our Texas colleges/universities. Not only that, but because of this massive migration to Texas, the prices for tuition, room and board, etc is skyrocketing. Like "scongress" posted on another thread, slow controlled growth is fine so that schools, counties, infrastructure, etc. has time to keep up, but when people are coming here from all over the country en masse to one particular city/state, it creates so many more problems than people realize. Yes, we talk about overcrowding on our streets/highways, rising home prices, and overcrowding in public places, but our schools (secondary and post secondary) are also being overwhelmed! By the time my kids get to the college age, it will be a nightmare to even try to get into a local community college, much less The University of Texas, where I graduated from. Families who have been here less than a certain number of years, say 10 years, should be grouped into another category "out of state applicants" and shouldn't be competing with native Texans for spots in our school system(public colleges/universities)! Schools all across the country are seeing declines in applications while Texas schools are seeing 20% increases!! That's huge! I don't think people realize the kind of impact all this migration to Texas is having on us. Yes, we should be friendly and all, but fair is fair. Everyone wants to move here to get their "piece of the pie" but what's that doing to all of us who have lived here all our lives? We're having to give up our share with strangers who are only here because it's the "next best thing." This makes me irate! When is our government (Texas) going to wake up and do something about it??!!! The strain of all these people here is overwhelming even local school districts. Now, my kids aren't getting the attention they should be getting because they're in classrooms of 40 plus kids, in portable buildings, because half the state of California decided to move to Texas for greener pastures!! Please, some of you on here who have moved here, tell me how this is a good thing? Explain to me how this "change is a good thing" is REALLY a good thing for those of us who've lived here our whole lives who now have to face all these problems you're creating? And please, spare me the "Politically Correct" responses I keep reading on here. Be real.
Let me tell you something. As a former resident of Texas and as someone who has lived in 5 different states(including the one I'm in now), I do like Texas and I feel as if you don't like other people come from out of state attending your college, then go somewhere else, because believe it or not, many of these transplants want to be in Texas and find that TX has alot.
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Those days are far, far behind me. Thank goodness. According to the UT website:
. The 'flagship' universities will be just as average as all the others.
