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Which part? I wrote multiple things in there. If there's a general idea that there aren't people with EVs with kids who take roadtrips? I think that can probably be shown to be false.
If you're talking about the lack of fast charging stations, yes, that's definitely something that needs to be changed for the set of people who frequently take long road trips in order for them to consider EVs. That is true. What is also true is that these fast charging stations are proliferating fairly rapidly and with faster charging times (along with longer ranges so you need to charge less often). Think about the situation between the 2011 Nissan Leaf and the 2018 Nissan Leaf and how doable this trip was. It seems extremely unlikely that there isn't going to be a further expansion of fast charging stations, charging rates, and range increases.
I’d say the EV owners who do road trips with kids are the minority. I can’t think of a more miserable way to do a road trip. It probably explains why most Tesla’s on the highway seem to only have one or two occupants.
I’m sure somebody’s doing it, but it’s not necessarily “a thing”.
I have doubts that this is a common occurrence for most people in the US.
Even in that situation, did you not once stop for food, gas, or going to the restroom? You’re right that it takes most though not all electric cars currently on the market quite a bit more time, but the rate of improvement has been rapid in terms of range capacity, speed of charging, and ubiquity of fast chargers. If we use the entry level Nissan Leaf as an example, the debut 2011 base trim was 73 miles of range with charging maxed at 3.3kW which took 8 hours to get from empty (well, “empty”) to full charge. The Nissan Leaf in 2018, not the pricier extended-range Leaf+, was 151 miles of range with charging maxed at 50kW and with chargers being far more ubiquitous. In 7 years, the trip you outlined went from 11 or 12 charging stops at 8 hours each to 5 or 6 charging stops at an hour each for what is certainly not the longest range or fastest charging vehicle on the market. It’s still a hefty time premium over a gas car, but it’s much more manageable and it’s likely that the next revamp makes the difference negligible.
In your edge case, there are vehicles that can do it with two or three stops at a fast charger, but I think there’s a pretty solid argument that it is an edge case that will quickly become easier to do for more EVs in the next five years.
I've been retired for a number of years, hence I'm out of the loop, in regards to "employment politics", however, in my earlier days, many work connections were made on the golf course. My area of residence was at one time, a serious hub of manufacturing companies, hence golf was a very popular sport/pastime. And the Myrtle Beach, SC area, has been long known as the "mecca" of east coast golf. Therefore, "road trips" between western NY and the Carolinas are far more prevalent than you may think.
Given your mention of gas/rest room stops, yes, if I chose to make a "straight through run", I generally had to make 3 stops, but primarily for rest room breaks. One car I had, in particular, was a great road trip car. It was a 1993 Chevy Caprice LTZ. It was a fairly large, therefore VERY comfortable car to travel in. It had a fuel injected 350 cu/in engine, which gave it some pep, yet with the 4 speed, overdrive transmission, the car would deliver 25-25.5 MPG, at 65 MPH. Combined with a 25 gallon fuel tank, the car had a 600+ mile cruising range. Therefore, I only REQUIRED 1 fuel stop, on the trip that I've mentioned. That's one, 5 minute stop, to top off the tank. Yes, I did make other stops for food, etc, but the TOTAL time spent on all those stops combined, is only about 1 hour.
Secondly, again using my SC trip as an example, my route took me from my home, in a relatively urban area, shortly into some VERY rural area, for about 150-175 miles, before I'd see another populated area that might have a battery charging station. The final 100-125 miles of my trip, also were through the "boondocks", because I was using a route that was the most direct. Neither of those places would be a good place to get stuck without any "juice" in the battery. Therefore, I would most likely have to "short stop" somewhere, if possible, in order to traverse those two sections of that trip. That's just not practical....
I live in western NY, and one of my colleagues from work, used to own a condo unit in North Myrtle Beach, SC, which he would rent to friends and family. The distance is roughly 825-835 miles, depending on what part of my town you live in. Several times, some of my friends/co-workers and I booked the unit for a "long weekend", to play some golf.
We'd head out right after work, on a Wednesday, drive the 14 hours, straight through, and arrive early Thursday morning. Play golf through Sunday afternoon, get a good night's sleep, then leave early Monday morning, and drive straight through, again, and get home in the early evening. Back to work on Tuesday morning. Couldn't do that with an electric car....in fact, given the range of most electric cars, that trip would involve at least 4 days, just for the drive!!
You are really off if you were driving a Tesla, you would spend less than 2hrs charging, and some of that time you would probably be stopped anyway to eat, bathroom breaks and gas.
From abetterrouteplanner.com; going from Buffalo, NY to Myrtle Beach, SC - approximately 838 miles
Using a Tesla Model 3 AWD
Total drive time 13:15
Total charging time 01:37
Total travel time 14:52
Projected cost $37
Same trip in a current Tesla Model S LR
Total drive time 13:10
Total charge time 01:41
Total travel time 14:51
Projected cost $40
You are really off if you were driving a Tesla, you would spend less than 2hrs charging, and some of that time you would probably be stopped anyway to eat, bathroom breaks and gas.
From abetterrouteplanner.com; going from Buffalo, NY to Myrtle Beach, SC - approximately 838 miles
Using a Tesla Model 3 AWD
Total drive time 13:15
Total charging time 01:37
Total travel time 14:52
Projected cost $37
Same trip in a current Tesla Model S LR
Total drive time 13:10
Total charge time 01:41
Total travel time 14:51
Projected cost $40
I tried your website using the RWD Tesla and got a total of 16 hours of travel time and it leaves me with 10% battery at Myrtle Beach (apparently not going to work in the winter). Now I have add the Tesla charger in Myrtle Beach and charge all the way from 10%. That’s another 40 minutes to an hour.
The entire trip takes 7 stops! That could otherwise be done in 1-2 stops in any other car.
That’s works out to 17 hours vs 13 hours by gas car. With a gas car you can stop whenever you want for how long you want. The refuel time is negligible. People don’t need to stop and eat every two hours.
I tried your website using the RWD Tesla and got a total of 16 hours of travel time and it leaves me with 10% battery at Myrtle Beach (apparently not going to work in the winter). Now I have add the Tesla charger in Myrtle Beach and charge all the way from 10%. That’s another 40 minutes to an hour.
The entire trip takes 7 stops! That could otherwise be done in 1-2 stops in any other car.
That’s works out to 17 hours vs 13 hours by gas car. With a gas car you can stop whenever you want for how long you want. The refuel time is negligible. People don’t need to stop and eat every two hours.
EVs suck for long range. It's just a question of how much they suck, how important that is to you, and upfront cost. It's somewhat important to me as I do sometimes take longer drives. I like going up the coast to Oregon or Washington mostly just for the drive. It's just over 300 miles from San Rafael to the next supercharger in Eureka. You'd have to go up 120 and that's no fun.
A realistic 200+ mile range in 30 minutes I could tolerate, but we're not there yet. Sure if you run your battery down to 10% you can get 200+ miles but that's cutting it close. With a 400 mile range you could charge from 30% to 80% in under 30 minutes which gets you +200 miles.
There's no cost advantage. At Supercharger rates it's quite equivalent in terms of cost for electricity and gasoline. I mean, that is for a Prius which gets very good gas mileage but also using California gas prices. It's a Prius though and, well, boring. Even post price hike Superchargers are on the low end for public charging but public charging is expensive.
Upfront cost. Depending on if/what Rivian releases in 2020, it might be the first 400 mile range EV. It's also $70,000 for the base 230 range. It's hard to imagine a scenario in which the 400 mile range R1T does not top $100,000. Kind of a cool lifestyle truck. I like it in a similar way to how I like the Raptor. I'm not in the market for either and definitely not for over $100,000. A $50,000 Model3-like vehicle with 400 mile range, maybe. Maybe in five years we'll see that. Until then I'll keep pumping gas.
That works out to 17 hours vs 13 hours by gas car. With a gas car you can stop whenever you want for how long you want. The refuel time is negligible. People don’t need to stop and eat every two hours.
I’d say the EV owners who do road trips with kids are the minority. I can’t think of a more miserable way to do a road trip. It probably explains why most Tesla’s on the highway seem to only have one or two occupants.
I’m sure somebody’s doing it, but it’s not necessarily “a thing”.
I'd say car owners who do long road trips with kids are the minority in general, not just EVs. Most cars on the highway in general have one or two occupants which is why I think pushing for better mass transit and transit-oriented development makes a lot more sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by leadfoot4
I've been retired for a number of years, hence I'm out of the loop, in regards to "employment politics", however, in my earlier days, many work connections were made on the golf course. My area of residence was at one time, a serious hub of manufacturing companies, hence golf was a very popular sport/pastime. And the Myrtle Beach, SC area, has been long known as the "mecca" of east coast golf. Therefore, "road trips" between western NY and the Carolinas are far more prevalent than you may think.
Given your mention of gas/rest room stops, yes, if I chose to make a "straight through run", I generally had to make 3 stops, but primarily for rest room breaks. One car I had, in particular, was a great road trip car. It was a 1993 Chevy Caprice LTZ. It was a fairly large, therefore VERY comfortable car to travel in. It had a fuel injected 350 cu/in engine, which gave it some pep, yet with the 4 speed, overdrive transmission, the car would deliver 25-25.5 MPG, at 65 MPH. Combined with a 25 gallon fuel tank, the car had a 600+ mile cruising range. Therefore, I only REQUIRED 1 fuel stop, on the trip that I've mentioned. That's one, 5 minute stop, to top off the tank. Yes, I did make other stops for food, etc, but the TOTAL time spent on all those stops combined, is only about 1 hour.
Secondly, again using my SC trip as an example, my route took me from my home, in a relatively urban area, shortly into some VERY rural area, for about 150-175 miles, before I'd see another populated area that might have a battery charging station. The final 100-125 miles of my trip, also were through the "boondocks", because I was using a route that was the most direct. Neither of those places would be a good place to get stuck without any "juice" in the battery. Therefore, I would most likely have to "short stop" somewhere, if possible, in order to traverse those two sections of that trip. That's just not practical....
I agree your roadtrip is difficult with most EVs offered on the market today. I still don't have much reason to believe that is it a particularly large proportion of trips or drivers who make that kind of trip with much frequency. Certainly a hybrid or a gas vehicle makes more sense for those situations than EVs for the most part today. However, as some people have pointed out, there are EVs out there where your trip wouldn't have that much more of a time penalty with certain EVs today.
Your specific example is much more doable with many more EV models today than it was several years ago in regards to spending additional hours on the trip rather than additional days as the rate of improvement has been immense in the last several years. You can see that from the baseline Nissan Leaf example of that trip in 2011 with a then new Nissan Leaf versus a trip in 2018 with a then new Nissan Leaf (and not the extended range one) and those aren't by any means top-of-the-line EVs. Certainly someone who today is shopping for a vehicle and makes that trip you outlined technically has the option of buying an EV with enough range, fast charging, and charging options where the trip you outlined is marginally longer than doing so with an ICE vehicle though the issue is if they have the money to afford such a vehicle such as a long range Model 3 with an EPA rated range of 310 miles, has compatibility with current chargers that go up to 250 kW (something like 60-70 miles added in 5 minutes of charge time, though on your route the chargers would be at 120 kW today which is still immensely faster than the 3.3 kW rate the base Nissan Leaf 2011 did), and a large fast charging network with both Tesla's Superchargers as well as adapters for other fast charging protocols.
There is little sign that those improvements won't keep coming at a quick clip including such that make the cost of a vehicle with longer ranges lower in at least the short term future of the next decade or two. Energy density for batteries have effectively been doubling every 8 years with no near-term end of that decades long trend within site. That greater energy density has also continuously come with lower costs per capacity since it's far less material used overall. For an EV where most of the work done is lugging around the weight of itself and occupants, these higher energy densities means for the same amount of capacity you need far less battery weight which by itself means an effective increase in range. Meanwhile, fast charging stations are both becoming much more numerous in number as well as much faster at charging. This conversation about the feasibility of your trip today is very different from that if we had discussed this in 2011. Likewise, it is going to be a very different conversation in another few years.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 08-24-2019 at 07:13 AM..
EVs suck for long range. It's just a question of how much they suck, how important that is to you, and upfront cost. It's somewhat important to me as I do sometimes take longer drives. I like going up the coast to Oregon or Washington mostly just for the drive. It's just over 300 miles from San Rafael to the next supercharger in Eureka. You'd have to go up 120 and that's no fun.
A realistic 200+ mile range in 30 minutes I could tolerate, but we're not there yet. Sure if you run your battery down to 10% you can get 200+ miles but that's cutting it close. With a 400 mile range you could charge from 30% to 80% in under 30 minutes which gets you +200 miles.
There's no cost advantage. At Supercharger rates it's quite equivalent in terms of cost for electricity and gasoline. I mean, that is for a Prius which gets very good gas mileage but also using California gas prices. It's a Prius though and, well, boring. Even post price hike Superchargers are on the low end for public charging but public charging is expensive.
Upfront cost. Depending on if/what Rivian releases in 2020, it might be the first 400 mile range EV. It's also $70,000 for the base 230 range. It's hard to imagine a scenario in which the 400 mile range R1T does not top $100,000. Kind of a cool lifestyle truck. I like it in a similar way to how I like the Raptor. I'm not in the market for either and definitely not for over $100,000. A $50,000 Model3-like vehicle with 400 mile range, maybe. Maybe in five years we'll see that. Until then I'll keep pumping gas.
Yea, that sounds about right. Both the version 3 Tesla supercharger and CCS chargers at 500 amps give you 200+ miles range in 30 minutes for the long-range Model 3, but they've both had fairly limited deployment thus far. A five year timespan for that kind of fast charging rates being fairly ubiquitous and 400 mile range at $50,000 adjusted for inflation seems like a pretty reasonable expectation.
That being said, there are now two superchargers between San Rafael and Eureka, both on 101 in Ukiah and Laytonville. Another one in Mendocino on the PCH is supposed to open this year.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 08-24-2019 at 07:29 AM..
I'd say car owners who do long road trips with kids are the minority in general, not just EVs. Most cars on the highway in general have one or two occupants which is why I think pushing for better mass transit and transit-oriented development makes a lot more sense.
I agree your roadtrip is difficult with most EVs offered on the market today. I still don't have much reason to believe that is it a particularly large proportion of trips or drivers who make that kind of trip with much frequency. Certainly a hybrid or a gas vehicle makes more sense for those situations than EVs for the most part today. However, as some people have pointed out, there are EVs out there where your trip wouldn't have that much more of a time penalty with certain EVs today.
Your specific example is much more doable with many more EV models today than it was several years ago in regards to spending additional hours on the trip rather than additional days as the rate of improvement has been immense in the last several years. You can see that from the baseline Nissan Leaf example of that trip in 2011 with a then new Nissan Leaf versus a trip in 2018 with a then new Nissan Leaf (and not the extended range one) and those aren't by any means top-of-the-line EVs. Certainly someone who today is shopping for a vehicle and makes that trip you outlined technically has the option of buying an EV with enough range, fast charging, and charging options where the trip you outlined is marginally longer than doing so with an ICE vehicle though the issue is if they have the money to afford such a vehicle such as a long range Model 3 with an EPA rated range of 310 miles, has compatibility with current chargers that go up to 250 kW (something like 60-70 miles added in 5 minutes of charge time, though on your route the chargers would be at 120 kW today which is still immensely faster than the 3.3 kW rate the base Nissan Leaf 2011 did), and a large fast charging network with both Tesla's Superchargers as well as adapters for other fast charging protocols.
There is little sign that those improvements won't keep coming at a quick clip including such that make the cost of a vehicle with longer ranges lower in at least the short term future of the next decade or two. Energy density for batteries have effectively been doubling every 8 years with no near-term end of that decades long trend within site. That greater energy density has also continuously come with lower costs per capacity since it's far less material used overall. For an EV where most of the work done is lugging around the weight of itself and occupants, these higher energy densities means for the same amount of capacity you need far less battery weight which by itself means an effective increase in range. Meanwhile, fast charging stations are both becoming much more numerous in number as well as much faster at charging. This conversation about the feasibility of your trip today is very different from that if we had discussed this in 2011. Likewise, it is going to be a very different conversation in another few years.
I think you might be off on your assessment of who does long range trips. It could be because I’ve been living along the I-95 corridor where the entire east coast and Canada seems to funnel down in their pilgrimages to Disney, but nearly every vehicle I see is either trucks pulling campers, RV’s, minivans and large SUV’s packed to the gills. The popularity of three row seating SUV’s over small urban commuters seems to reinforce this.
As far as the exercise in taking a trip from Buffalo to Myrtle Beach, it’s a perfect example of how it’s possible to long range travel in an EV if you chose the largest and most expensive available battery pack just for the occasional long trip, but it’s far less convenient. Also consider that trip was planned under ideal circumstances. no traffic, detours, and ideal weather. With some stops taking you to 10% battery remaining, that’s cutting it a little too close. Sure over time they may develop better battery technology, but on the same token you could say they could also make more efficient ICE’s. The new Highlander Hybrid gets the same mileage as a Corolla from not too long ago.
In terms of of total cost of ownership, a rapidly developing EV technology would be harmful to resell values of current technology, so I think this is another negative against buying an EV anytime soon.
I think you might be off on your assessment of who does long range trips. It could be because I’ve been living along the I-95 corridor where the entire east coast and Canada seems to funnel down in their pilgrimages to Disney, but nearly every vehicle I see is either trucks pulling campers, RV’s, minivans and large SUV’s packed to the gills. The popularity of three row seating SUV’s over small urban commuters seems to reinforce this.
As far as the exercise in taking a trip from Buffalo to Myrtle Beach, it’s a perfect example of how it’s possible to long range travel in an EV if you chose the largest and most expensive available battery pack just for the occasional long trip, but it’s far less convenient. Also consider that trip was planned under ideal circumstances. no traffic, detours, and ideal weather. With some stops taking you to 10% battery remaining, that’s cutting it a little too close. Sure over time they may develop better battery technology, but on the same token you could say they could also make more efficient ICE’s. The new Highlander Hybrid gets the same mileage as a Corolla from not too long ago.
In terms of of total cost of ownership, a rapidly developing EV technology would be harmful to resell values of current technology, so I think this is another negative against buying an EV anytime soon.
Nearly every vehicle you see? Really. Do you possibly live close to Disney World, the global attraction which gives Orlando something like top 5 most international and domestic visitors in the US? I don't think that really qualifies as typical or commonplace usage.
Traffic is generally fine for EVs, because they don't spend much power idling. Stop and go isn't so bad for EVs because they get some energy recovery. You're totally right in that very long range EVs are quite expensive right now though the expensive long range EVs also aren't going to have much of an issue with range anxiety for that trip you mentioned (though one can argue that the Chevrolet Bolt and Hyundai Kona EVs are not that expensive and get you about 250 miles of range and capable of some fast charging capability). This trip is also a good example that while it's doable with a EV today with a negligible time difference, it is going to be an expensive luxury EV you'd be buying. Whether someone can afford that or even wants a luxury vehicle is going to depend greatly on a person's circumstances though that trip is at least doable and helps highlight how massively different the situation is now compared to several years ago.
I think it depends on the EV you're buying and for what purpose. I mean, people do lease cars though and do trade-ins. An EV that works for your purposes today is fine. It's sometimes offset by federal, state, and local tax credits or rebates which won't necessarily always be there. One thing that does improve with the years with any EV that you buy is that charging stations will continue to be much, much more common with every passing year. I've mentioned this before, but a friend bought a Model S a few years back, and while she loved her car back when she bought it, she actually feels that same car is overall a better car today than it was when she first bought it due to to over the air updates, and much more importantly, the proliferation of charging stations both fast charging and not. That latter point has made roadtrips a completely different experience today than it was a few years back.
Now think about this topic and how far things have moved from 2011 to today. A lot of people have pretty outdated ideas of what is currently on the market for EVs, so there's going to be a lag time in terms of perception--certainly in topics in the past few months I've seen you post criticisms from articles several years back that are no longer accurate. Now think about that rate of change and how relatively little resources in research and development were being put into EVs back then compared to now. The pace of change has been rapid and will continue to be in the near future. The things that need to happen for EVs to go truly mass market are in some cases already there, but further changes are going to continue to sweeten that pot and those changes are coming out quickly.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 08-24-2019 at 08:38 AM..
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