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Most people know that cars with (unadjusted) 21.5 mpg or lower are subject to a gas guzzler tax ranging from $1000 to $7700 for cars with mileage below 12.5 mpg. Only a Bugatti Chiron Super Sport and Pur Sport that costs millions of dollars pays the entire $7700 tax.
Also most people understand that in its present form the Gas Guzzler tax has virtually no influence on purchasing as the cars are so expensive that the GG tax is a minor footnote. I remember in 2019 the Subaru STI received a $1000 GG tax which is very rare for a vehicle under $50K. Subaru sells very few STI cars so they simply paid it from corporate and made some design modifications so that it went below 22.5 mpg the following year.
The simplest carbon tax the US could enact is to change the Guzzler Tax to apply to all vehicles (SUVs and Pickups) as well as cars. There would be a $1000 tax on all vehicles that get between 21.5 and 22.5 miles
Instead of just uber expensive vehicles that would mean more affordable vehicles would be taxed. The idea of someone paying $2600 GG tax on a Rolls Royce is almost laughable, but the idea of paying the same $2600 tax on a $53K Toyota Sequoia or a Jeep Wrangler 4dr 4X4 is a lot different.
Keep in mind that this tax would still be much less than the carbon based taxes in Europe. Should we do it just to encourage manufacturers to avoid these low mpg vehicles?
mpg Class Mfr Name Division Carline Guzzler? (TRUE means the car already pays the Gas Guzzler Tax)
11.2434 Two Seaters Volkswagen Group of Bugatti Chiron Pur Sport TRUE $7700 Gas Guzzler Tax
11.2434 Two Seaters Volkswagen Group of Bugatti Chiron Super Sport TRUE $7700 Gas Guzzler Tax
12.8850 Two Seaters Volkswagen Group of Bugatti Chiron TRUE $6400 Gas Guzzler Tax
13.3745 Two Seaters Volkswagen Group of Lamborghini Aventador Coupe TRUE $6400 Gas Guzzler Tax
15.0098 Standard Pick-up Trucks 4WD FCA US LLC Ram 1500 TRX 4x4 FALSE $4500 Gas Guzzler Tax
16.8897 Two Seaters Ferrari Ferrari North America, Inc. 812 GTS TRUE $3000 Gas Guzzler Tax
17.2348 Two Seaters Ferrari Ferrari North America, Inc. 812 Competizione TRUE $3000 Gas Guzzler Tax
$2600 Gas Guzzler Tax
17.5417 Minicompact Cars Volkswagen Group of Bentley Continental GT Speed Convertible TRUE
17.7294 Standard SUV 4WD Volkswagen Group of Lamborghini Urus FALSE
17.9095 Large Cars Rolls-Royce Rolls-Royce Motor Cars Limited Ghost TRUE
17.9095 Large Cars Rolls-Royce Rolls-Royce Motor Cars Limited Ghost Black Badge TRUE
17.9095 Large Cars Rolls-Royce Rolls-Royce Motor Cars Limited Ghost Extended TRUE
17.9524 Subcompact Cars Volkswagen Group of Bentley Continental GT Speed TRUE
18.1596 Midsize Station Wagons Rolls-Royce Rolls-Royce Motor Cars Limited Cullinan TRUE
18.1596 Midsize Station Wagons Rolls-Royce Rolls-Royce Motor Cars Limited Cullinan Black Badge TRUE
18.1840 Small SUV 4WD FCA US LLC Jeep Wrangler 4dr 4X4 FALSE
18.2398 Large Cars Rolls-Royce Rolls-Royce Motor Cars Limited Phantom TRUE
18.2398 Large Cars Rolls-Royce Rolls-Royce Motor Cars Limited Phantom Extended TRUE
18.3156 Standard SUV 4WD Toyota Toyota SEQUOIA 4WD FALSE
18.3254 Standard SUV 4WD Volkswagen Group of Bentley Bentayga Speed FALSE
$2100 Gas Guzzler Tax
18.6344 Midsize Cars General Motors Cadillac CT5 V TRUE
18.6401 Midsize Cars Volkswagen Group of Bentley Flying Spur TRUE
18.7458 Standard Pick-up Trucks 4WD General Motors Gmc SIERRA 4WD MUD TERRAIN TIRES
18.7472 Standard Pick-up Trucks 4WD General Motors Chevrolet SILVERADO 4WD MUD TERRAIN TIRES
18.7720 Standard SUV 4WD FCA US LLC Jeep Grand Wagoneer 4x4
18.8590 Two Seaters Volkswagen Group of Lamborghini Huracan Coupe RWD TRUE
18.8590 Two Seaters Volkswagen Group of Lamborghini Huracan Spyder RWD TRUE
18.8592 Two Seaters Volkswagen Group of Lamborghini Huracan Coupe TRUE
18.8592 Two Seaters Volkswagen Group of Lamborghini Huracan Spyder TRUE
18.9672 Standard SUV 2WD FCA US LLC Jeep Grand Wagoneer 4x2
18.9678 Two Seaters Volkswagen Group of Audi R8 Coupe TRUE
18.9678 Two Seaters Volkswagen Group of Audi R8 Spyder TRUE
19.0184 Subcompact Cars General Motors Chevrolet CAMARO TRUE
19.0787 Standard SUV 2WD Toyota Toyota SEQUOIA 2WD
19.1427 Standard SUV 4WD BMW Bmw X6 M Competition
19.1427 Standard SUV 4WD BMW Bmw X6 M
19.1427 Standard SUV 4WD BMW Bmw X5 M Competition
19.1427 Standard SUV 4WD BMW Bmw X5 M
19.3331 Standard SUV 4WD Jaguar Land Rover L Land Rover Range Rover LWB SVA
$1700 Gas Guzzler Tax
19.5017 Standard Pick-up Trucks 4WD General Motors Gmc SIERRA 4WD MUD TERRAIN TIRES
19.5017 Standard Pick-up Trucks 4WD General Motors Chevrolet SILVERADO 4WD MUD TERRAIN TIRES
19.8278 Large Cars BMW Bmw M760i xDrive Sedan TRUE
19.8945 Standard SUV 4WD Nissan Infiniti QX80 4WD
19.8950 Standard SUV 4WD Maserati Maserati LEVANTE TROFEO
19.8950 Standard SUV 4WD Maserati Maserati LEVANTE MODENA V8
19.9471 Midsize Cars General Motors Cadillac CT5 V TRUE
19.9547 Standard SUV 4WD Jaguar Land Rover L Land Rover Range Rover SVA
19.9661 Standard SUV 4WD Nissan Nissan ARMADA 4WD
19.9906 Standard Pick-up Trucks 4WD Ford Motor Company Ford F150 RAPTOR 37 4WD
Best I can offer to someone proposing such a thing? Stop being so damn greedy. People work hard and earn their money. Useless government bureaucrats have no right, reason or justification to try to take even more money from those that earned it. Aside from that, those that already purchase vehicles, ICE in particular, already pay massively. Sales tax on the vehicle. Registration. Insurance. Fuel taxes. Tolls in some areas that are especially backwards and regressive.
We do have an issue concerning fuel tax. As we convert more vehicles from ICE to EV, we need to ensure EV drivers pay their fair share of highway taxes. They are typically heavier than a comparable ICE and therefore put incrementally more wear and tear on the roads.
I would further add that getting this greedy and taking even more from those that drive an ICE vehicle increase the animosity towards those driving EVs. As someone that's a supporter of EVs I don't want to see that happen. Want to sell more EVs and get people out of ICE? Build better EVs at lower prices. I want a Tesla Model Y (actually Cybertruck, but not available). But, frankly, it should be a $30-35k vehicle, not $60k plus.
Well, in these vehicular tax discussions some of the posters in this and other forums have problems with the "pdf" report below, since it shows the federal and local taxes collected at the fuel pumps and fuel distributors throughout the USA. What will cities, states, and the Federal Government do when they lose the revenues from the sale of fuels? By the way, diesel, jet, gasoline, heating fuel, and other fuels are taxed at different levels in CA, but the report relates only to the expense for ICE versus EVs: https://www.andersoneconomicgroup.co...y_10-21-21.pdf
“Turkey has the highest automobile taxes in the world.”
Turkey’s special consumption tax for vehicles with an engine capacity of 1.6 liters has been raised from 60% to 80% according to a presidential decree published this past weekend. Models with a capacity of more than 2.000 cubic centimeters saw their taxes go up from 100% to 130%, while costs for high segment cars will jump from 160%to 220%, as reported by Bloomberg. These hikes don’t apply to locally produced cars, only imports.
However, that doesn’t mean that domestic producers won’t struggle, seen as how they rely on imported goods too.
The 2018–2020 model year North American-spec Toyota C-HR are imported from Turkey.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake
Stop being so damn greedy. People work hard and earn their money. Useless government bureaucrats have no right, reason or justification to try to take even more money from those that earned it.
That is , of course, the standard response to any suggestion of taxes. But automobile taxes based on carbon in most of Europe are staggerlingly high, often thousands of dollars at purchase, and then it is very common to pay annually either for 3 years or the life of the vehicle.
In Ireland you would pay an annual tax of €1200 ~$1361 for cars from from 24.5 mpg to 28.9 mpg .The annual motor tax jumps to €2350~$2665 for vehicles with lower fuel economy than 24.5 mpg. In addition there is a hefty tax on purchasing the vehicle based on expected consumption of fuel. You would even pay €200~$227 for any vehicle that gets 49.7 mpg to 54.7 mpg, which in America is only a handful of small hybrids.
Pressure is undoubtedly going to increase on the US to raise taxes as global warming is a global issue.
Expanding the scope of the existing gas guzzler tax is a very very very modest proposal in comparison to the European taxes. It is not an annual tax, but only a one time purchase tax. Plus it only applies to vehicles with worse gas mileage than 21.5 mpg
From the table in the OP there would only be one pickup that would pay $4500,
15.0098 mpg Standard Pick-up Trucks 4WD Ram 1500 TRX 4x4
Only four new vehicles would pay $2600.
17.7294 mpg Standard SUV 4WD Lamborghini Urus
18.1840 mpg Small SUV 4WD Jeep Wrangler 4dr 4X4
18.3156 mpg Standard SUV 4WD Toyota SEQUOIA 4WD------ will probably get new better perfroming engines within a year
18.3254 mpg Standard SUV 4WD Bentley Bentayga Speed
There would be dozens of new vehicles that would pay $1000, $1300, $1700 or $2100 (one time fee), but unlike Ireland most of the vehicles would not pay any tax at all.
If you are going to say I don't live in Turkey or Europe and we will vote out any politician that proposes a carbon tax, that is fine as long as it works.
“Turkey has the highest automobile taxes in the world.”
Turkey’s special consumption tax for vehicles with an engine capacity of 1.6 liters has been raised from 60% to 80% according to a presidential decree published this past weekend. Models with a capacity of more than 2.000 cubic centimeters saw their taxes go up from 100% to 130%, while costs for high segment cars will jump from 160%to 220%, as reported by Bloomberg. These hikes don’t apply to locally produced cars, only imports.
However, that doesn’t mean that domestic producers won’t struggle, seen as how they rely on imported goods too.
The 2018–2020 model year North American-spec Toyota C-HR are imported from Turkey.
That is , of course, the standard response to any suggestion of taxes. But automobile taxes based on carbon in most of Europe are staggerlingly high, often thousands of dollars at purchase, and then it is very common to pay annually either for 3 years or the life of the vehicle.
In Ireland you would pay an annual tax of €1200 ~$1361 for cars from from 24.5 mpg to 28.9 mpg .The annual motor tax jumps to €2350~$2665 for vehicles with lower fuel economy than 24.5 mpg. In addition there is a hefty tax on purchasing the vehicle based on expected consumption of fuel. You would even pay €200~$227 for any vehicle that gets 49.7 mpg to 54.7 mpg, which in America is only a handful of small hybrids.
Pressure is undoubtedly going to increase on the US to raise taxes as global warming is a global issue.
Expanding the scope of the existing gas guzzler tax is a very very very modest proposal in comparison to the European taxes. It is not an annual tax, but only a one time purchase tax. Plus it only applies to vehicles with worse gas mileage than 21.5 mpg
From the table in the OP there would only be one pickup that would pay $4500,
15.0098 mpg Standard Pick-up Trucks 4WD Ram 1500 TRX 4x4
Only four new vehicles would pay $2600.
17.7294 mpg Standard SUV 4WD Lamborghini Urus
18.1840 mpg Small SUV 4WD Jeep Wrangler 4dr 4X4
18.3156 mpg Standard SUV 4WD Toyota SEQUOIA 4WD------ will probably get new better perfroming engines within a year
18.3254 mpg Standard SUV 4WD Bentley Bentayga Speed
There would be dozens of new vehicles that would pay $1000, $1300, $1700 or $2100 (one time fee), but unlike Ireland most of the vehicles would not pay any tax at all.
If you are going to say I don't live in Turkey or Europe and we will vote out any politician that proposes a carbon tax, that is fine as long as it works.
And? This isn't Europe. Why would we want to become as backwards and regressive as they are? Any American politician that suggests differently...should pack up and go to Europe.
By the way-Europe's fuel taxes have little to do with "climate change". They have been obscene for decades, even back when "climate change" meant we were bringing on a new ice age due to pollutants blocking sunlight (70s). I first traveled in Europe in the early 80s, gas was $7-8 a gallon then IIRC.
And from this pie chart it is obvious that Europe is responsible for only a minor percentage of the world's carbon emissions. So it is ridiculous that they should have such high carbon taxes.
It ain't a Carbon tax. It was conceived long before a Carbon tax was even thought of. It was to discourage personal vehicles because Western Europe had to import all its gasoline. It wasn't until discovery of the North Sea fields and the fall of the Communist Bloc that Europe had any oil reserves at all.
FIRST, it gives money to Congress which will waste it. At best, Congress will turn it into a social equity issue, transferring the carbon tax proceeds back to poor people as subsidies in the name of "fairness." As surely as the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, certain extreme progressives in Congress will call for larger subsidies to their preferred voting blocks in the interest of getting themselves reelected.
SECOND, a carbon tax actively reduces the standard of living of Planet Earth.
THIRD, a carbon tax doesn't do anything to directly solve the problem whereas other actions directly solve the problem.
Several straight forward geoengineering approaches can directly reduce global temperatures. For example, direct injection of reflective aerosols into the stratosphere, thereby reducing solar energy gain from the sun. For example, when Mt. Pinatubo erupted in 1991, it ejected about 22 million tons of reflective aerosols into the stratosphere, resulting in Global COOLING of about 1 degree for about 3 years. A simple engineering program is to float high altitude "weather balloons" with light weight tubes stretching to the ground attached to reflective aerosol generators. Pump the reflective aerosols into the stratosphere resulting in more solar energy being reflected into outer space, thereby resulting in COOLING Planet Earth. No need for an economy-destroying carbon tax.
Another approach is marine cloud "brightening". Most marine clouds (clouds over the open oceans) are quite reflective, bouncing back quite a bit of solar energy back into outer space. We can brighten them & hence make them even more reflective by spraying fine sea water into them, causing them to reflect more solar radiation back into outer space resulting in COOLING Planet Earth. No need for an economy-destroying carbon tax.
There are other approaches such as cirrus cloud thinning (unlike marine clouds, cirrus clouds actually absorb more solar energy than they reflect back into outer space), and the deployment of "space parasols" to cut down on the amount of solar energy that hits Planet Earth.
The above beg the question, what REALLY is the objective?
Polymath Nathan Myhrvold, who runs Intellectual Ventures, was interviewed on Fareed Zakaria GPS quite some time ago. He discussed these engineering approaches as alternatives to the economic approach of a carbon tax. He said he was not able to get traction with office of the Speaker of the House of Representatives (occupied by Nancy Pelosi). It was clear, he said, that the Speaker's Staff had a very different objective than did Nathan. Their objective, it was clear from the conversation he reported, was to increase tax revenue, and thus a carbon tax "solved the problem" or at least part of the problem. Their objective was not to cool the planet; it was to raise money for social program expansion.
It ain't a Carbon tax. It was conceived long before a Carbon tax was even thought of. It was to discourage personal vehicles because Western Europe had to import all its gasoline. It wasn't until discovery of the North Sea fields and the fall of the Communist Bloc that Europe had any oil reserves at all.
I am aware that many of these taxes existed for a long time for economic objectives. Certainly Turkey, which has the highest automotive taxes in the world were developed to protect domestic industry.
The Japanese kei car (sometimes called the Japanese supermini) was a tax category of vehicles specifically designed to make them more affordable to encourage the power WWII population to upgrade from motorcycles. Kei cars engines were limited to 0.15 liters in 1949, but in 1955, the displacement limit increased to 0.36 liters.
As almost everyone knows the VW Beetle specs were basically written by the Nazi party. In the US household car ownership was about 33% in 1920 and hit a majority in the 1940s. Only a few percentage of German families in the 1930s owned a private car. Somewhat ironic as Germany was the birthplace of the internal combustion engine. The original Beetle had 25 hp.
That said, "environmentalism" has replaced "communism" as the second worldwide secular religion. There are very few outright bans on any kind of car, but in Turkey you would have to be terribly rich to not only spend $495,000 on a Rolls Royce, but to pay an additional $495,000 in tax.
I appreciate the comments on technical alternatives like
direct injection of reflective aerosols into the stratosphere
And from this pie chart it is obvious that Europe is responsible for only a minor percentage of the world's carbon emissions. So it is ridiculous that they should have such high carbon taxes.
Does this pie chart take into account the population of each country? Of course a country with 5% of America's population (Australia) is going to have less carbon emissions
Not to mention China produces a lot of the worlds crap. Their high carbon footprint belongs to every county that imports their wares.
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moguldreamer
There are three major problems with a carbon tax.
FIRST, it gives money to Congress which will waste it. At best, Congress will turn it into a social equity issue, transferring the carbon tax proceeds back to poor people as subsidies in the name of "fairness." As surely as the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, certain extreme progressives in Congress will call for larger subsidies to their preferred voting blocks in the interest of getting themselves reelected.
SECOND, a carbon tax actively reduces the standard of living of Planet Earth.
THIRD, a carbon tax doesn't do anything to directly solve the problem whereas other actions directly solve the problem.
...
The above beg the question, what REALLY is the objective?
....
This ^^^^
Forget the artificial means to WHAT end...
Define the problem.
Determine the objectives.
Implement the solution.
Maybe this is too simple for politicians (Requires an expected and measurable result)
There are many problems, there are many solutions. Consumers are capable of making the right decisions given the defined objectives.
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It was conceived long before a Carbon tax was even thought of. It was to discourage personal vehicles because Western Europe had to import all its gasoline. It wasn't until discovery of the North Sea fields and the fall of the Communist Bloc that Europe had any oil reserves at all.
