Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
It would be nice if this conversation could stick to the facts, rather than knee jerk reactions with no real foundation. The truth of the matter (as far as my research shows) is that ethanol blends are, generally speaking, more harm than good.
That said, there are few reasons for most people to get twisted up about "100% gas" vs E10 blends. Modern cars' fuel systems are designed to handle it and the computer systems for these same cars are, in fact, optimized for E10, so if you're running a 2005+ car on "pure gas" because it's better for it, you're delusional.
On the other hand, E85 and Flex Fuel vehicles are another issue entirely. My FF Nissan averages about 10% less MPG on E85 than on E10 premium (back when I could even buy it). It gets about 5% less MPG on E85 than it gets on 100% gas. Right now E85 is 23% cheaper than 100% gas at my local station here in OK. For me, E85 is a solid choice, as it's about 15% cheaper on a cost per mike basis. I do notice a slight drop in power, but it's still got mote than I need, so it's a non-issue.
As I said earlier in this thread, folks with older cars and engines ought to stay away from ethanol though, as their fuel systems aren't set up to run it.
For those concerned that ethanol is some left wing plot, think again. Environmentalists know ethanol is bad news. It is, at best, a farm subsidy program (championed by Midwestern farm states) that's wrapped itself in a "green" banner. Although the fuel itself is carbon neutral, its production is not.
It's far from being a true green product.
Conveniently for ethanol producers, it's a handy and cheap way to replace the MTBE that itself replaced lead as an octane booster. MTBE has a nasty habit of causing cancer and leaching into the water table.
I wish I could find gas around here without ethanol. Not gonna happen here in the Corn Belt.
I actually live right in center of the corn belt and every gas station has gas w/o ethanol. I believe the problem is likely your state decision makers and who has influence over them.
i believe the gas will be mandated in the next couple years everywhere to have the hooch crap in it. Here it is mandated that we get the horrible fuel milage and poor performance of the laced gas. I know last year the state passed a 15 percent min. amount of garbage corn in the gas. When I take a trip to anywhere outside the state, even tho gas may cost a dime more, the extra 4-6 mpg i get is worth it. So is the lack of the engine "pinging". I usually buy just enough crud to get to a good gas area plus i know i'm nearly empty so when i fill up it will be good gas.
By all the laws of physics and chemistry that is impossible. E85 gives about 25% less mileage than gasoline.
he does realize his area doesn't have true gas that is not at least 10 percent crap/ er/ ethanol. If he had true gas, then he would see the 23-25% drop difference. I'm still waiting for a treehugger to admit they screwed the pooch on our gas. Seriously, if it was about getting better fuel milage which would also give lower exhaust emissions, then ethanol wouldn't be required in the gas! Niether would MTBE, which is 10 times more dangerous than the lead it replaced. I'll take leaded gas anytime over the crud at todays pump.
I think your thinking of unleaded fuel starting in the 1970's. Ethanol as a fuel didn't really start until the late 90's. There is no danger in running 100% gasoline.
Gasoline has more energy than Ethanol, therefore fuel mileage improves and power also improves. I run 100% Gasoline in my truck (And my truck has been worked and ran HARD) and haven't had a problem.
I would like to see someone come up with a concept of a passenger car designed to run 100% Ethanol.
After more research, it seems the "regular 87" gas is E10 and "regular 86" is pure gas (the slightly higher octane comes from the ethanol.) Since my car is rated for octane 86, pure gas is fine but it may be a problem for those engines rated for octane 87 (like my friend's newer Prius.) Then again, mixing in a little midgrade may be of better use than using octane 87 E10..
Fyi, I've remembered quite some time (since my early days, like from the late 1980s and on) and almost all the pumps carry "octane 87" as regular gas which is probably E10.
By all the laws of physics and chemistry that is impossible. E85 gives about 25% less mileage than gasoline.
That is only true if the engine is not optimized to run it. Ethanol acts as an oxygenator in the fuel. While it is true that ethanol has less energy content than gas, a car optimized to run it will make more power than a straight gas engine and return only about 5% - 10% less MPG.
The issue is that no car can be produced to optimize the ethanol mix. Even E85 "flex fuel" cars are compromised as they must be able to run on everything from straight gas to 85% ethanol blend. So to are regular cars impacted by the E10 blend even though they can run it. Since there is no guarantee that the fuel will contain precisely 10% ethanol, the engine tuning must be done to run everything from pure gas to E10.
In order to properly take advantage of ethanol, engines need to have a higher compression ratio and more aggressive timing. That is the only way to balance out the lower energy content of the fuel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tek_Freek
I actually live right in center of the corn belt and every gas station has gas w/o ethanol. I believe the problem is likely your state decision makers and who has influence over them.
That is absolutely the problem. There is no standard and it is left to a hodge podge of state and local laws to determine what the blend needs to be. For instance, E10 is not required by the state here in NJ, but about 2/3rds of counties have banned MTBE, which means the gas must contain ethanol. This is not something that should be left to county governments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12GO
i believe the gas will be mandated in the next couple years everywhere to have the hooch crap in it. Here it is mandated that we get the horrible fuel milage and poor performance of the laced gas. I know last year the state passed a 15 percent min. amount of garbage corn in the gas. When I take a trip to anywhere outside the state, even tho gas may cost a dime more, the extra 4-6 mpg i get is worth it. So is the lack of the engine "pinging". I usually buy just enough crud to get to a good gas area plus i know i'm nearly empty so when i fill up it will be good gas.
The issue goes back to there not being a standard that engines can be tuned to. Based on the fact you get pinging when running the ethanol, I'm willing to bet you have an older car.
The fuel itself is not crap, what is crap is the reasons it was added to the gas in the first place and the absolute lack of creation of any national standard to control it.
If you are going to argue it, at least argue it from the correct standpoint. There is nothing wrong with ethanol blended fuel itself. What is wrong is the absolute abortion that is the ethanol program in the U.S.
he does realize his area doesn't have true gas that is not at least 10 percent ethanol. If he had true gas, then he would see the 23-25% drop difference.
The 23-25% drop difference occurs regardless of whether E85 is compared to straight gasoline or E10. There is only about 3% mpg mileage difference between straight gasoline and E10.
Assuming pure ethanol has 70% of the energy content of pure gasoline, then the difference in mileage between E85 and pure gasoline is
(0.70 * 0.85 + 0.15) = 74.50%
The difference in mileage between E85 and E10 is
(0.70 * 0.85 + 0.15) / (0.70 * 0.10 + 0.90) = 76.80 %
Quote:
I'll take leaded gas anytime over the crud at todays pump.
I'm sure folks like you could'nt care less about the environment.
The 23-25% drop difference occurs regardless of whether E85 is compared to straight gasoline or E10. There is only about 3% mpg mileage difference between straight gasoline and E10.
Assuming pure ethanol has 70% of the energy content of pure gasoline, then the difference in mileage between E85 and pure gasoline is
(0.70 * 0.85 + 0.15) = 74.50%
The difference in mileage between E85 and E10 is
(0.70 * 0.85 + 0.15) / (0.70 * 0.10 + 0.90) = 76.80 %
While your formula is correct, on the energy content of ethanol fuels, it fails to take into account the fact that an engine properly designed to run on ethanol blends (higher compression, increased timing) can negate much of the difference.
If we are seeking "truth" than the truth is that a car properly designed to run on ethanol would only suffer a 5% - 10% decrease in mileage versus a gas equivalent. As it is, no such engines exist in the consumer realm since there is no legislation to create ethanol standards and all we are left with are compromised cars that get less MPG when they run ethanol.
While engine timing can be advanced on an E85 car running E85, the compression ratio which is where the real benefit comes in, remains unchanged. An E85 car could safely run 11.5+:1 compression, however a pure gas engine would suffer from knock at those compression levels, forcing the manufacturers and engine builders to make the engines with more traditional 9.5-10:1 compression to run on regular gas.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
