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There's also the fact that Jordan didn't join a Super Team. I know some people who make a big deal of the fact that Jordan had Pippen, but Pip was drafted (technically by the Sonics and then traded). In my mind, that's a bit different from saying, "I want to be on this team with a guy who's already one of the best players in the NBA." I'm sure MJ could have had a few more rings earlier in his career if he just teamed up with Isiah, Dominique, Magic, Hakeem, Ewing, Sir Charles, Larry, Malone and Stockton, etc.
Absolutely.
Jordan didn't have to bail on Chicago to win a championship.
But who is really dominating from the low/mid post in today's game? No one really. Zone defenses have taken away the days of consistently scoring from the post. Teams have to mix and move more than they did in the 90's.
Kobe made a good living from the mid post.
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Originally Posted by CaliDude1
If we are talking today's game I'll take LeBron. His size and versatility make him the ultimate threat to score or pass.
I would take Jordan from the day Naismith put a peach basket on a poll up to the present day.
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Originally Posted by BajanYankee
There's also the fact that Jordan didn't join a Super Team. I know some people who make a big deal of the fact that Jordan had Pippen, but Pip was drafted (technically by the Sonics and then traded). In my mind, that's a bit different from saying, "I want to be on this team with a guy who's already one of the best players in the NBA." I'm sure MJ could have had a few more rings earlier in his career if he just teamed up with Isiah, Dominique, Magic, Hakeem, Ewing, Sir Charles, Larry, Malone and Stockton, etc.
Thank you...god bless you. LOL.
Call me old school, call me a "purist," but I hate today's NBA, where young all-star players basically serve out their rookie contracts, then flee to a coastal team (LA, NY, MIA, etc) and join other all-star players and build their very own all-star team. Lebron will forever be a chump for that.
And people often choose to ignore Lebron's size. Let's be honest guys. As far as his gameplay is concerned, Lebron James is a bully. With the ball skills that he has, at 6'8 250+, he bullies his way to the basket, able to absorb contact and score an easy hoop for the "and 1."
If Lebron was the same size as Michael Jordan (6'6", 215), meaning James were 2 inches shorter and 35 pounds lighter, he would not be "Lebron James." Michael Jordan had so much more pure "it factor" and finnesse. Much of Lebron's game is drive to the hoop, abosrb contact, and make the layup. Jordan was absorbing contact while fading away from ridiculous angles and still dropping 27 a night.
i'm sorry guys. I respect Lebron's game, but he will never, EVER be MJ23. And quite frankly, the comparisons make me sick. not that my opinion means anything.
Call me old school, call me a "purist," but I hate today's NBA,
Good post, however I somewhat disagree with this. I love yesteryear's NBA, but I can't hate today's NBA because without it, what pro basketball am I gonna watch?
Jordan didn't have to bail on Chicago to win a championship.
That's true, Jordan didn't have to bail on Chicago to win a championship. Because Chicago is not Cleveland. Lucky for Jordan.
Not sure why you guys want all-time great players to waste their careers playing for terrible, inept franchises. I can only surmise that you're not real basketball fans and you're just here for the nostalgia circle jerk. I hated watching Kevin Garnett waste nearly his whole prime in Minnesota. What a waste of an all-time great career. Fortunately he finally got out in time to do something with his career- barely.
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Originally Posted by Kees
MeBron couldn't wear his jockstrap...
Why do 95% of the Lebron haters never post in this forum until his name gets brought up?
Let me guess, you quit watching the NBA 15 years ago and stick to "real" sports like the NFL where playing defense is against the rules?
Lebron came into the league at 18 years old fresh out of high school, Jordan came in at 21 after 3 years of college. That's not a very fair comparison. Jordan shot 51.5% his rookie year vs. 41.7% for Lebron's rookie year because Jordan was older and had spent 3 years playing against better competition before making the jump to the NBA.
In which Jordan won a NCAA Championship. A winner at the biggest levels...even at 20 yrs old. If you want to make the age argument, I'll just say - how much better would Jordan's stats been if he was given 2-3 extra years of NBA level development? The college game is only 30 games vs 82 + playoffs in the NBA. Perhaps another MVP? Perhaps he gets by the Pistons earlier?
It was no where near as common for players to go pro that early in the 80s. Jordan averaged 14ppg on 53% as a college freshman...that's a lotto pick on potential nowadays.
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Despite that, Lebron has still arguably been the more efficient scorer.
Lebron has averaged 3.9 3PT attempts per game for his career (with a higher 3PT%) vs. 1.25 per game for Jordan through age 28. That isn't reflected in the shooting percentage even though 3 pointers count for 50% more.
Does 3 pt % really matter for these types of players? Jordan was a slasher....perhaps the best ever. Of course he wasn't shooting 3s. Why not compare overall FG%?
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Let's throw out Jordan's Washington days since he was half washed up then. Basketball Reference breaks the numbers down by team making things easy. This is Lebron for his career vs. Jordan's career as a Chicago Bull:
Effective FG%:
Jordan: 51.8%
Lebron: 52.7% (57.3% in 4 years on the Heat)
True Shooting%:
Jordan: 58.0%
Lebron: 57.8% (61.9% in 4 years on the Heat)
So their efficiency is equal. What does this prove? Jordan was just as efficient yet scored many more pts. Usually it's the other way around - a player that scores more isn't as efficient.
Of course Lebron's efficiency goes up with the Heat - he's playing with one of the top 3 shooting guards of the last 10 years. He also plays with a top-5 PF.
And lets not forget PER - Jordan wins there too.
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What if Jordan had to play against today's better athletes and more advanced defensive schemes?
Whoa whoa whoa....better athletes? Better athletes? We aren't comparing the 50s and 00's here. LOL. There are PLENTY of NBA players that played with Jordan and were just as good or better while playing in Lebron's era. Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, Ray allen, Jason Kidd, Steve Nash. I could go on. Heck, even Jordan himself came back and put up 23 PPG. I've never heard anyone claim that guys like Ewing, Barkley, Robinson, Magic, Bird, etc wouldn't dominate today's game.
Wow.
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What if Jordan had to play with the rule changes starting around 99-00 to illegal defense rules allowing zone defenses and more double teams? These rule changes were implemented to combat all the isolation/one-on-one play that started with Jordan and continued with T-Mac, Iverson, Kobe, Vince, etc.
He did. And he put up 20-23 PPG as a 38-39 yr old man!!!!! Do you think anyone is going to believe that a rule change would hold down MJ?
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What if Lebron had played in the triangle with Phil Jackson?
What if Jordan hooked up with Karl Malone and John Stockton in the 80s? Could you say 10+ rings?
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You can come up with all kind of what-if scenarios.
Yes you can, but older players, coaches and anyone around the game almost unanimously agree that the game of the 80s-90s was much more physical - they also agree that defense was emphasized much more than today.
Also, look at any list of all time great team. I can almost guarantee you will see the Showtime Lakers, Badboy Pistons and Celtics. How many of today's teams make that list? Possibly the Spurs of 10 years ago?
And here is another stat:
How many times did Jordan get pushed to a game 7 in the finals?
How many times did Jordan lose in the finals?
How many times did Jordan average 2 pts in the 4th quarter of ANY finals?
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Those numbers for Lebron are from this year and based on a small sample size (<30 games). Lebron turned 29 this year, if you want to compare Lebron at 28 last year is a better comparison because he played a lot more games last year at 28 years old than he did this year.
You are splitting hairs trying to boost his numbers any way possible. Their birthdays are seperated by 9 months.
Even using your numbers, MJ still wins.
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Furthermore, steals isn't a very good stat to judge defensive ability.
Allen Iverson averaged 3x as many steals per game as Bruce Bowen for his career and Bruce Bowen was 10x the defensive player Iverson was. If you want to compare defensive abilities I'll take Lebron. He guards 1-4 and occasionally 5. Jordan mostly stuck to 1s and 2s, and Pippen usually guarded the best wing player. You could argue that Jordan was the 2nd best defender on his team. You could even argue that when Rodman was there Jordan was the 3rd best defender. You can't argue that anyone on the Heat is close to Lebron defensively.
You would have a point if like Allen Iverson, MJ never made all-defensive 1st team. If we are assuming both are good defensive players, I will look at steals. And why are you confusing defensive versatility with defensive prowess? Being more versatile does not make one a better defender.
Lets also look at NBA finals through their first 10 years:
Michael Jordan – (3 NBA Finals – 17 games): 36.0ppg, 53.06 FG%, 7.2rpg, 8.06apg, 2.06spg, 0.8bpg, 44.3 3PT %, 81.1 FT%
LeBron James – (4 NBA Finals – 22 games): 23.2ppg, 43.8 FG%, 9.0rpg, 7.0apg, 1.72spg, 0.59bpg, 26.5 3PT %, 72.7% FT
BTW, if that's a real picture from ESPN then they need to fire their statistician.
Jordan was born on February 17th, 1963. He won his first NBA title on June 12th, 1991, making him 28 at the time. He won his second title June 14th, 1992 at age 29.
Furthermore, he won his third MVP award in 1992 at age 29. So that graphic should say 1 title and 2 MVPs.
Once again - splitting hairs. 90% of what Jordan in 1992 was done at 28 years old.
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Pistons, Celtics, and Lakers were past their prime and on the decline by the time Jordan started winning titles. In his title years Jordan didn't face any "great" teams.
Better than anyone Lebron faced. Celtics, Pistons, Lakers...all destroy '11 Mavs, '12 Thunder and '13 Spurs. The Jazz, Sonics, Trailblazers, etc are also better than any team Lebron has faced. Shaq and Penny's Orlando Magic of the mid-90s are better than any team Lebron faced. Just look at what Roy Hibbert did to the Heat - can you imagine what prime Shaq would do? Lord have mercy.
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Never played against zone defenses. Never got double-teamed without the ball. Never faced guys shadowing him inside playing off their man, that was illegal defense.
They didn't have that in the 01-02 or 02-03? These things don't seem to affect the current crop of NBA guards. Are they better than Jordan?
Are you seriously going to say the defense played by teams like the Knicks with Starks, Oakley and Ewing is anything compared to today?
It's hard to argue that the hand checking rule didn't help perimeter players. The stats say otherwise as efficiency sky-rocketed when it was created.
Check this out:
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New Jersey Nets executive Rod Thorn, a longtime expert on NBA rules, acknowledges that last season the league adopted a dramatic shift in how it interpreted the rules of the game.
No longer would a defensive player on the perimeter be allowed to use his hand, a barred arm or any sort of physical contact to impede or block the movement of either a cutter or a ball handler.
In a recent interview, Thorn said that the NBA had changed the rule to give an advantage to the offensive player.
“It’s more difficult now to guard the quick wing player who can handle the ball,†Thorn said of the change. “I think it helps skilled players over someone who just has strength or toughness. What the NBA is trying to do is promote unimpeded movement for dribblers or cutters.â€
Thorn said the change was made because muscular defensive players had gotten the upper hand.
“My opinion is that the game had gone too much toward favoring strong players over skilled players,†Thorn said. “The NBA felt there was too much body, too much hand-checking, being used by defenders to the detriment of the game. There was a feeling that there was too much advantage for a defensive player who could merely use his strength to control the offensive player.â€
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He never went up against Hakeem in the playoffs. He never went up against David Robinson in the playoffs. He went up against a very young Shaq (22 & 23 years old IIRC) twice and lost one of those meetings.
If you compare the guys they actually played against in the playoffs it's fairly equal.
Spurs- Tim Duncan (2x)
Thunder- Perkins/Serge Ibaka
Mavs- Tyson Chandler
ARE. YOU. KIDDING. ME.
Did you forget Ewing in the conference finals?
Did you forget Alonzo Mourning?
Ewing >>>>> 38 yr old Duncan, Perkins/Ibaka (LOL), Chandler
Shaq at 22/23 >>>>>>>> ALL
Yes, Jordan lost once to Shaq but does anyone count that considering he had been away from basketball for 2 years? Jeez.
Oh, I forgot Rik Smits, Bill Laimbeer and Vlade Divac. These 3 alone as a good or better than anything Lebron faced.
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Jordan also faced in the playoffs Shaq, Ewing, Smits, Lambier, Parish etc. while Lebron faced KG/Perkins, Ben Wallace/Rasheed Wallace, Dwight Howard, Roy Hibbert, Joakim Noah/Omer Asik, Tyson Chandler, etc.
Check the bold. Enough said. You shouldn't have made this argument.
NO ONE you listed compares to prime Ewing and Shaq. No one.
I'm embarrassed that you even mentioned Asik, Noah and Hibbert.
Lebron did face Dwight Howard - AND HE LOST. IN 6 GAMES. Why mention it?
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If anything Lebron faced the better defenses and defenders inside.
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LOL at Bosh and Wade at top 5 players. Wade was a top 5 player before the big 3 era. Bosh has never been top 5.
Wade is and was a top 5 SG. He's arguably top 5 overall. He's putting up 20/5/5 while shooting 53% and playing with 2 other superstars.
In 2011 Wade had one of the best finals ever. He put up 26.5ppg, 7 rpg, 5 apg while shooting 55%. That's top 5 ALL TIME numbers my friend.
What did Lebron do in this series?
Oh that's right...
He averaged 17.8ppg and totally disappeared in the 4th qtr. Thanks Lebron...Wade should have 4 rings right now.
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Jordan's supporting cast in Chicago was better than Lebron's in Miami and it's really not all that close.
How so?
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Some of the best rebounders in NBA history were 6'6"-6'7": Rodman, Ben Wallace, Charles Barkley, Wes Unseld, etc.
Were these guys shooting guards?
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Allen Iverson leads Magic Johnson by 7 ppg too. Jordan and Lebron aren't the same type of player. Lebron has never been a score-first player like Jordan was.
And Iverson is a better scorer. Magic was better overall and lead teams to 5 rings. Can't compare them on any level really.
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If you're going to hold Lebron being taller against him when it comes to rebounds, why don't you hold Jordan being shorter against him for having fewer turnovers? It's easier to have the ball stripped when you're taller. It's harder change directions and weave through traffic when you're taller/heavier. It's harder to move laterally and stay in front of guys when you're taller/heavier.
I'm not holding anything against anyone. I'm saying that a guard that's within 1 rpg of a 260lb forward, is a very good rebounding guard. As good or better than the 260lb forward. I'm not going to mention height/turnovers because the decision to handle the ball is the player's choice. You can not handle the ball as much but you can't grow in size on the court.
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Pound-for-pound/relative to their height are really arbitrary and specious arguments. It doesn't have anything to do with anything. Earl Boykins was better than Larry Bird "pound-for-pound," whatever that means. Who cares?
It's perfectly relative. If a a PG averages 4 APG and a center averages 4 APG given the same minutes played....who would you say is the better passer? I'll say the center. If Lebron were to average 10 RPG next year, would he then be a better rebounder than centers that average 10 RPG?
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Not 2 full seasons, he came back in 95 and lost to the Magic.
17 games = playing a full season? Me no like that logic.
For the sake of this argument, only one season off. He only played 17 regular season games in 94-95, but he played in the playoffs and put up about average MJ numbers.
Your standards are too high if you expect someone to take 2 years off, play 17 regular season games and then win a championship. If we did that to every star player, the record books would have to be re-written because we'd likely have a different winner every time. Check out what MJ did the next season when he faced the Magic.
If you want to make the age argument, I'll just say - how much better would Jordan's stats been if he was given 2-3 extra years of NBA level development? The college game is only 30 games vs 82 + playoffs in the NBA. Perhaps another MVP? Perhaps he gets by the Pistons earlier?
How much better would his stats be? They could be better, worse, or about the same. It's impossible to say. That's pure conjecture and there's nothing to support the idea that guys who entered the league straight out of high school would have better per game stats than if they had gone to college. Better cumulative stats, sure.
He said the game-winner in the '82 championship was the "turning point" of his career. Would he be the same player without that turning point and without Dean Smith's coaching? What if he got drafted by a crap team that never put enough talent around him? What if his body wore out earlier from playing more games? What if he blew out his knee at 19-years old and never played again? What if he played his career at small forward because the team that drafted him had a good 6'4" shooting guard? What if he played in the Western Conference? What if he didn't have Rodman pulling in 17 rebounds per game giving him a bunch of extra shots? What if he didn't have Pippen to guard the other team's best wing player? What if Len Bias didn't overdose? What if I traveled back in time and killed Tex Winter's grandpa and the triangle offense was never invented?
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Originally Posted by eddiehaskell
Does 3 pt % really matter for these types of players? Jordan was a slasher....perhaps the best ever. Of course he wasn't shooting 3s. Why not compare overall FG%?
Because the team with the most points wins the game, not the team with the most field goals.
Which would you rather have?
A: 15 points on 3 for 12 (25%) shooting
B: 10 points on 5 for 12 (42%) shooting
That's the whole reason these stats were created (true shooting percentage, effective field goal percentage, points per shot, etc.). How many points you score per shot attempt or possession is what ultimately matters.
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Originally Posted by eddiehaskell
Of course Lebron's efficiency goes up with the Heat - he's playing with one of the top 3 shooting guards of the last 10 years. He also plays with a top-5 PF.
Bosh is nowhere near a top 5 power forward, stop overrating him to make Lebron look worse.
Kevin Love, Zach Randolph, Tim Duncan, LaMarcus Aldridge, Serge Ibaka, Blake Griffin, Dirk Nowitzki, Anthony Davis, and Kenneth Faried. There are 9 guys that are better. I would take Paul Millsap and David West over him too.
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Originally Posted by eddiehaskell
Whoa whoa whoa....better athletes? Better athletes? We aren't comparing the 50s and 00's here. LOL. There are PLENTY of NBA players that played with Jordan and were just as good or better while playing in Lebron's era. Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, Ray allen, Jason Kidd, Steve Nash. I could go on. Heck, even Jordan himself came back and put up 23 PPG. I've never heard anyone claim that guys like Ewing, Barkley, Robinson, Magic, Bird, etc wouldn't dominate today's game.
Most of those guys were rookies or second year players Jordan's last year as a Bull.
I didn't say there was a huge difference in athletic ability between the players then and now, but there is most definitely a significant difference. That can't even be argued. Guys with Rudy Gay's athleticism are practically a dime a dozen in today's NBA, they weren't in the late 80s to early and mid 90s and you know it.
Those guys would still be great players in today's NBA without a doubt, but it's possible their numbers wouldn't be quite as high, especially with today's slower pace. That is the counter-argument to your what-if. You keep coming up with all kinds of hypothetical scenarios to make Jordan look better but you never look at the other side.
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Originally Posted by eddiehaskell
What if Jordan hooked up with Karl Malone and John Stockton in the 80s? Could you say 10+ rings?
What if Lebron was drafted by the Spurs? Give me a break.
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Originally Posted by eddiehaskell
Yes you can, but older players, coaches and anyone around the game almost unanimously agree that the game of the 80s-90s was much more physical - they also agree that defense was emphasized much more than today.
You realize that hand checking was eliminated in 1994, right? Right in the middle of Jordan's 3-peats?
1990-1991: 31.5 ppg on 53.9% shooting
1991-1992: 30.1 ppg on 51.9% shooting
1992-1993: 32.6 ppg on 49.5% shooting
1993-1994: Jordan retired to play baseball 1994-1995 hand checking eliminated (Jordan comes back with 17 games left)
1995-1996: 30.4 ppg on 49.5% shooting
1996-1997: 29.6 ppg on 48.6% shooting
1997-1998: 28.7 ppg on 46.5% shooting
Why did Jordan score fewer points at a lower percentage after the rule change if the hand checking rule would have made things so much easier for him? All the fanboys say he would average 50 ppg with no hand checking.
And the rule changes against physical play started before Jordan started winning championships...
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Since 1990, the NBA has instituted a series of rules changes to increase the offensive player's flow and make physical play costly. First came increased penalties for flagrant fouls (1990) and fighting (1993), the implementation of the "five points" rule that called for automatic suspensions of players who amassed a certain number of flagrants (1993). Hand checking was eliminated in 1994.
Now, who are these coaches saying that defense was better in the 1980s and 1990s? Teams didn't even attempt to play any defense until the late 80s when they saw the success that the Bad Boy Pistons had.
Kiki Vandeweghe was an all-star player that played until 1993, a coach, and now a GM. I think he knows a little about the game. He was on Detroit sports radio a couple weeks ago talking about the Nuggets vs. Pistons game in the 80s that was the highest scoring NBA game in history (186-184 was the final). He said that today's players are much more athletic, more skilled, and that play calling and defenses are far more complex now. He said that in the 80s they hardly ever ran any plays at all, there was no transition defense, and they never practiced 3-pointers. The thought of practicing 3-pointers never really occurred to them, it was such a small part of the game.
Try watching an 80s game on youtube. Guys regularly dribbled the ball the whole way up the court and chucked up uncontested 18-footers without anyone else ever touching the ball. No one got back on defense. No one put a hand in anyone's face. Uncontested layups galore. The most hustle you ever saw was them sprinting to the out of bounds area as fast as possible so they could run back up the court and chuck up another shot.
Also, look at any list of all time great team. I can almost guarantee you will see the Showtime Lakers, Badboy Pistons and Celtics. How many of today's teams make that list? Possibly the Spurs of 10 years ago?
And Lebron has made all-defensive 1st team the last 5 years too...
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Originally Posted by eddiehaskell
And why are you confusing defensive versatility with defensive prowess? Being more versatile does not make one a better defender.
What? Of course being more versatile makes someone a better defender.
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Originally Posted by eddiehaskell
Lets also look at NBA finals through their first 10 years:
Michael Jordan – (3 NBA Finals – 17 games): 36.0ppg, 53.06 FG%, 7.2rpg, 8.06apg, 2.06spg, 0.8bpg, 44.3 3PT %, 81.1 FT%
LeBron James – (4 NBA Finals – 22 games): 23.2ppg, 43.8 FG%, 9.0rpg, 7.0apg, 1.72spg, 0.59bpg, 26.5 3PT %, 72.7% FT
NOW GET OUT OF HERE!!!!!!
What were Jordan's finals stats at 22 years old? Oh yeah, he was a rookie. He didn't make the finals until he was 5 years older, against a much weaker defensive team. More apples and oranges comparisons.
Last edited by EugeneOnegin; 01-03-2014 at 10:25 PM..
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All the fanboys say he would average 50 ppg with no hand checking. 
