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How much better would his stats be? They could be better, worse, or about the same. It's impossible to say. That's pure conjecture and there's nothing to support the idea that guys who entered the league straight out of high school would have better per game stats than if they had gone to college. Better cumulative stats, sure.
He said the game-winner in the '82 championship was the "turning point" of his career. Would he be the same player without that turning point and without Dean Smith's coaching? What if he got drafted by a crap team that never put enough talent around him? What if his body wore out earlier from playing more games? What if he blew out his knee at 19-years old and never played again? What if he played his career at small forward because the team that drafted him had a good 6'4" shooting guard? What if he played in the Western Conference? What if he didn't have Rodman pulling in 17 rebounds per game giving him a bunch of extra shots? What if he didn't have Pippen to guard the other team's best wing player? What if Len Bias didn't overdose? What if I traveled back in time and killed Tex Winter's grandpa and the triangle offense was never invented?
You said:
"Lebron came into the league at 18 years old fresh out of high school, Jordan came in at 21 after 3 years of college. That's not a very fair comparison."
Isn't it conjecture to say 3 years of college ball makes for a better NBA player? They could be better, worse or about the same.
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Because the team with the most points wins the game, not the team with the most field goals.
Which would you rather have?
A: 15 points on 3 for 12 (25%) shooting
B: 10 points on 5 for 12 (42%) shooting
That's the whole reason these stats were created (true shooting percentage, effective field goal percentage, points per shot, etc.). How many points you score per shot attempt or possession is what ultimately matters.
In that case MJ wins.
Through 28 years old...higher shooting % and more points.
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Bosh is nowhere near a top 5 power forward, stop overrating him to make Lebron look worse.
Kevin Love, Zach Randolph, Tim Duncan, LaMarcus Aldridge, Serge Ibaka, Blake Griffin, Dirk Nowitzki, Anthony Davis, and Kenneth Faried. There are 9 guys that are better. I would take Paul Millsap and David West over him too.
Bold yes.
Not bold no.
Anthony Davis wasn't better until THIS YEAR.
Blake Griffin maybe (fancy dunks don't count and playing with #1 PG helps)
Dirk is 35 years old now
Zach Randolph - no
Kenneth Faried - Hell no
Tim Duncan - 38 years old
Serge Ibaka - better defensively, better role player, not a better player
You've got 2 possibles and 1 maybe.
Please stop short changing an 8x all star and acting as if he's a scrub.
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Most of those guys were rookies or second year players Jordan's last year as a Bull.
And you think the quality of athletes changed that much between '96 and '00 or so when these guys were dominating? I forgot about Iverson...should have thrown him in too.
What about Jason Kidd, Chris Webber, Jamal Mashburn, Anfernee Hardaway, Allen Houston, Shaq, Alonzo, Sprewell, Mutumbo, Gary Payton, etc? These guys were successful when Jordan was winning rings and well into the '00s.
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I didn't say there was a huge difference in athletic ability between the players then and now, but there is most definitely a significant difference.
No.
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That can't even be argued. Guys with Rudy Gay's athleticism are practically a dime a dozen in today's NBA, they weren't in the late 80s to early and mid 90s and you know it.
MJ? Shawn Kemp? David Thompson? Dominique Wilkins? Vince Carter? Shaq? David Robinson? Clyde the Glide Drexler? Scottie Pippen? Sir Charles Barkley?
Get out of here with that non-sense.
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Those guys would still be great players in today's NBA without a doubt, but it's possible their numbers wouldn't be quite as high, especially with today's slower pace. That is the counter-argument to your what-if. You keep coming up with all kinds of hypothetical scenarios to make Jordan look better but you never look at the other side.
Their numbers would be higher. Dominant centers of the 90s would murder.
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What if Lebron was drafted by the Spurs? Give me a break.
Great. So if you don't get drafted by a winner just create your own dream team. Today's youth.
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You realize that hand checking was eliminated in 1994, right? Right in the middle of Jordan's 3-peats?
No.
2004-05
• New rules were introduced to curtail hand-checking, clarify blocking fouls and call defensive three seconds to open up the game.
The first rule change is easier explained than to just put the official NBA rule, which is the equivalent of basketball legal speak. Essentially what it means is that in the olden days of Michael Jordan, when a player was guarding a perimeter player he could extend his hand and put it on the player to “check” him.
As a point of clarification on the hand check rule there’s a lot of disinformation available in various forums which debate the subject. The hand check rule that players are referencing when they speak of “today’s rules” is the rule as it was amended prior to the 2004-05 season.
While part of that was just a matter of clarifying the rule, the major part of it was its emphasis to officials. There was technically a hand-check foul in 1994-95, but it wasn’t the same type of foul or called with the same frequency.
....
Michael Jordan never played with the same type of hand-check rule as the game is called today. That’s the subject of the article.
This gave the defender two advantages. One, he could actually slow him down a bit with his hand. Second, with more athletic players who could explode to the basket, it meant they could “feel” which way the player was going.
This gave the defender an advantage in that day that he doesn’t have in this day, at least in the eyes of those who tout its influence.
1990-1991: 31.5 ppg on 53.9% shooting
1991-1992: 30.1 ppg on 51.9% shooting
1992-1993: 32.6 ppg on 49.5% shooting
1993-1994: Jordan retired to play baseball 1994-1995 hand checking eliminated (Jordan comes back with 17 games left)
1995-1996: 30.4 ppg on 49.5% shooting
1996-1997: 29.6 ppg on 48.6% shooting
1997-1998: 28.7 ppg on 46.5% shooting
Wrong. And his shooting % went down due him getting older. Jordan was 28 in '92. He was 34 in '98. It happens to everyone yet it is still remarkable that he could average 29 ppg on nearly 47% shooting at 34.
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Why did Jordan score fewer points at a lower percentage after the rule change if the hand checking rule would have made things so much easier for him? All the fanboys say he would average 50 ppg with no hand checking.
No.
"The most significant change in recent years are frequently referred to as the "hand-check rules," but they are not rule changes at all. Instead, based on the advice of a special 2001 committee led by then-Suns owner Jerry Colangelo, the league ended the boring, grind-it-out defensive style of the Pat Riley Knicks by instructing referees to more tightly enforce existing rules against impeding the progress of offensive players, especially with hand-checking. Since then, any contact that affects an offensive player's speed, rhythm, balance or quickness is a foul -- a change that has goosed up the league's offensive numbers; inspiring some of the greatest offenses in NBA history (including this year's Spurs and the Phoenix Suns of a few years ago); and emboldening rim-attacking players like Derrick Rose, Rajon Rondo, Dwyane Wade and Russell Westbrook."
It’s basketball, so in the end of the day, it’s the same thing. But, over here, maybe, you can run more. There are more spaces because there is a defensive 3 second zone. And it’s easy to play here, because of all the spaces you have, and they can’t be more than 3 seconds in the zone. So that it looks easier going to the rim.
And the rule changes against physical play started before Jordan started winning championships...
From his Blog Maverick weblog, Mark Cuban's article 'If It’s Not Broke, Doesn’t Mean It’s Optimal. Even in the NBA';Feb 4th 2009:
"The NBA eliminated all forms of hand-checking before the 2004-2005 season. The rule was intended to give offensive players more freedom, but has given offensive players an unfair advantage. It’s virtually impossible to keep perimeter players out of the paint.
Unfortunately for Cuban and the Mavs, the rule changes he helped initiate contributed to Dallas’ loss to the Miami Heat in the 2006 NBA Finals. Dwyane Wade shot an NBA Finals record 97 free throws. To his credit, Wade attacked the basket relentlessly, but there were times when Maverick defenders beat Wade to a spot on the floor, had their arms to their sides, and were whistled for blocking fouls when Wade initiated contact. It was ridiculous. The Mavericks attempted 48 free throws in Game’s 5 and 6. Wade attempted 46 freebies over the same span
Cuban has done a lot for the NBA. But the hand-checking rule was better left unchanged."
Now, who are these coaches saying that defense was better in the 1980s and 1990s? Teams didn't even attempt to play any defense until the late 80s when they saw the success that the Bad Boy Pistons had.
What era do you think Jordan played in? THE 80s!!! Hand checking, arm bars, better team defense, crowded paint, no 3 second rule, etc.
No 3 second rule + the best big era EVER...what do you do?
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Because of the salary cap. What's your point?
They had a salary cap in 84-85.
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And Lebron has made all-defensive 1st team the last 5 years too...
I know...
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What? Of course being more versatile makes someone a better defender.
No. Versatility just means you can match up against more players - it doesn't mean you are better defender against the person you are matched up against.
Here is another little nugget.
Jordan won Defensive player of the year at 25 yrs old. Has Lebron ever won this award?
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What were Jordan's finals stats at 22 years old? Oh yeah, he was a rookie. He didn't make the finals until he was 5 years older, against a much weaker defensive team. More apples and oranges comparisons.
Haha. Nice dodge. Change the argument when the stats don't suit you.
Jordan's first 10 years is 10 years of finals domination!
And what if we compare Jordan's first finals to Lebron's first finals?
And before you pull out the but, but, but Lebron was younger card....
Jordan was 27 yrs 3 months old
Lebron was 26 yrs 5 months old
A difference of 10 months.
Both were in their athletic primes.
Obviously one player was ready to step into the spotlight and he did it in a big way.
This player would go on to win a championship every full season he played after that.
Better than anyone Lebron faced. Celtics, Pistons, Lakers...all destroy '11 Mavs, '12 Thunder and '13 Spurs. The Jazz, Sonics, Trailblazers, etc are also better than any team Lebron has faced. Shaq and Penny's Orlando Magic of the mid-90s are better than any team Lebron faced. Just look at what Roy Hibbert did to the Heat - can you imagine what prime Shaq would do? Lord have mercy.
Those 3 teams would be very competitive with the Jazz, Sonics, and Trailblazers. Those teams were not that great.
Shaq was a beast then and Penny was really good, but Shaq was 22-23. Penny was 23-24. Young teams never win in the NBA. It's practically completely unheard of. How many teams have won in the last 30 years with their best player under 25? The '99 Spurs in a lockout year with Duncan and a bunch of veterans (David Robinson, Terry Porter, Sean Elliot, Steve Kerr, Avery Johnson) is the only one I can think of. How many have won with both of their best players under 25? I'm about 99.9% sure that hasn't happened in the last 30 years.
You're right about Roy Hibbert abusing the Heat...because they have nothing inside, and that's not Lebron's fault...aside from him choosing to go there (should have gone to the Bulls, that team would have completely destroyed everyone). You're making my point there about the Heat having nothing inside, unlike the Bulls.
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Originally Posted by eddiehaskell
They didn't have that in the 01-02 or 02-03? These things don't seem to affect the current crop of NBA guards. Are they better than Jordan?
Illegal defense was eliminated in 2002. Jordan is the best shooting guard of all time, so no...none of the current crop is better than Jordan.
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Originally Posted by eddiehaskell
Are you seriously going to say the defense played by teams like the Knicks with Starks, Oakley and Ewing is anything compared to today?
Mid 2000s Pistons' and late 2000s Celtics' defenses were much better than those Knicks teams. The Pistons held *5* teams in a row to under 70 points.
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Originally Posted by eddiehaskell
It's hard to argue that the hand checking rule didn't help perimeter players. The stats say otherwise as efficiency sky-rocketed when it was created.
Check this out:
Hand checking was eliminated in 1994 in between Jordan's 3-peats. His ppg and FG% dropped in the second three-peat compared to the first. This arm forearm rule was implemented in the 1997-1998 season when Jordan won his last title, yet his ppg dropped from 29.6 to 28.7 and his FG% dropped from 48.6% to 46.5%. Apparently it didn't help him much.
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Originally Posted by eddiehaskell
ARE. YOU. KIDDING. ME.
Did you forget Ewing in the conference finals?
Did you forget Alonzo Mourning?
Those were the players he faced in the finals, like I said. He did not face Ewing or Mourning in the finals. I listed the other guys he faced in other rounds below.
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Originally Posted by eddiehaskell
Check the bold. Enough said. You shouldn't have made this argument. NO ONE you listed compares to prime Ewing and Shaq. No one.
Why did you bold Ewing? He was not a great defender. He made a whopping 3 NBA All-Defensive 2nd teams, 2 of which were before Jordan won a title.
Ben Wallace (4x defensive player of the year), Dwight Howard (3x NBA defensive player of the year), Kevin Garnett (1x NBA defensive player of the year), Tim Duncan (8x All-Defensive first team) are all far better defenders than Ewing.
Reggie Miller beat the big bad Ewing/Knicks in the playoffs too. Scottie Pippen almost beat the Knicks in the ECF after Jordan retired. You're trying to build the Knicks up when they were a ~50-win team most years.
Shaq was 22-23 years old when Jordan faced him. Reggie Miller's Pacers swept him at 21 years old. Young teams don't win in the NBA.
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Originally Posted by eddiehaskell
I'm embarrassed that you even mentioned Asik, Noah and Hibbert.
Why? They are all very good defenders.
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Originally Posted by eddiehaskell
Oh, I forgot Rik Smits, Bill Laimbeer and Vlade Divac. These 3 alone as a good or better than anything Lebron faced.
LOL. Rik Smits and rookie Vlade Divac are as good as Ben Wallace, Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, Dwight Howard?
I'm a lifelong Pacers fan, I've watched hundreds and hundreds of Rik Smits' games. Roy Hibbert (I've also seen hundreds of his games) is basically Rik Smits with much better defense. Rik Smits wasn't half the defender that Roy Hibbert is, let alone these other guys.
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Originally Posted by eddiehaskell
How so?
The Bulls were far better inside. The Heat have nothing inside. Remember earlier when you were talking about Hibbert destroying them inside? The Spurs destroyed them inside too. Everyone destroys them inside.
Pippen and Jordan complimented each other much more than Wade and Lebron. Wade and Lebron are redundant. Remember last year in the finals in game when the Heat went on big runs with Wade on the bench because Miller came in and finally stretched the defense giving Lebron room to penetrate?
Wade's plus/minus for the 2013 finals was -55. The Heat got outscored by the Spurs by *55* points when Wade was in the game.
Wade is a good player, at times very good, but he's not a very good fit with Lebron. He needs the ball in his hands too much and he can't shoot. Teams pack the lane on the Heat. I've been saying this since 2011. Wade and Lebron are a bad fit and the Heat have nothing inside. That is a poorly constructed team in terms of balance and chemistry.
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Originally Posted by eddiehaskell
Were these guys shooting guards?
How is that relevant? You're talking about rebounding and height as if being 2 inches taller gives you some big rebounding advantage. His teammate Rodman was virtually the same height and weight as Jordan and pulled in 17 rebounds per game.
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Originally Posted by eddiehaskell
It's perfectly relative. If a a PG averages 4 APG and a center averages 4 APG given the same minutes played....who would you say is the better passer? I'll say the center. If Lebron were to average 10 RPG next year, would he then be a better rebounder than centers that average 10 RPG?
Centers average fewer assists because of their position and role, not because being shorter makes it easier to get assists. That comparison doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense to compare the passing abilities of two wildly different positions either.
Leave the pound-for-pound type of arguments out of it. If you want to go that route then what if Bird had Jordan's athleticism? When people talk about all-time greats they don't try to make adjustments for physical gifts. If you want to define the best player as whoever got the most out of their physical gifts then Earl Boykins is probably the best player of all time. Who cares?
Last edited by EugeneOnegin; 01-04-2014 at 12:49 AM..
As boxing matches often go, if a fight goes the distance, in order to dethrone the champ you have to beat him somewhat convincingly.
At this point, Lebron has a long way to go. If his body holds up and he can lead a teams to 5 or so more championships, I would say his resume will look much better compared to MJ.
The next few seasons are pretty crucial IMO. Lebron is probably at his absolute peak with arguably the best team in the NBA...anything less than a championship this year (and probably next year) will almost definitely put a huge black mark on his resume.
As boxing matches often go, if a fight goes the distance, in order to dethrone the champ you have to beat him somewhat convincingly.
At this point, Lebron has a long way to go. If his body holds up and he can lead a teams to 5 or so more championships, I would say his resume will look much better compared to MJ.
The next few seasons are pretty crucial IMO. Lebron is probably at his absolute peak with arguably the best team in the NBA...anything less than a championship this year (and probably next year) will almost definitely put a huge black mark on his resume.
I agree with all of this, except that I'm not sure the Heat are the best team.
But I agree Lebron hasn't done enough to go ahead of Jordan all time yet. I just think some of the common arguments are a little light in logic and clouded by nostalgia.
Those 3 teams would be very competitive with the Jazz, Sonics, and Trailblazers. Those teams were not that great.
'11 Mavs not enough talent. '12 Thunder too young. '13 Spurs too old.
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Shaq was extremely dominant then and Penny was really good, but Shaq was 22-23. Penny was 23-24.
That's an understatement.
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Young teams never win in the NBA. It's practically completely unheard of. How many teams have won in the last 30 years with their best player under 25?
Lebron faced a team in the finals whose two best players were 23 yrs old. Does that speak to the competition he faced?
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The '99 Spurs in a lockout year with Duncan and a bunch of veterans (David Robinson, Terry Porter, Sean Elliot, Steve Kerr, Avery Johnson) is the only one I can think of. How many have won with both of their best players under 25? I'm about 99.9% sure that hasn't happened in the last 30 years.
The Magic weren't just any young team. Shaq at any age was practically unstoppable. It took one of the best centers in history to slow him down (Hakeem).
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You're right about Roy Hibbert abusing the Heat...because they have nothing inside, and that's not Lebron's fault...aside from him choosing to go there (should have gone to the Bulls, that team would have completely destroyed everyone). You're making my point there about the Heat having nothing inside, unlike the Bulls.
The Bulls weren't exactly great inside. Role players. Lebron has never played in a league with great big men. Jordan did.
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Illegal defense was eliminated in 2002.
Point?
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Mid 2000s Pistons' and late 2000s Celtics' defenses were much better than those Knicks teams. The Pistons held *5* teams in a row to under 70 points.
Who did the Pistons play?
There is big difference between the Pistons with prime Ben Wallace (won 64 games and beat the Cavs on '06) and the Pistons without Ben Wallace (won 53 games, lost their defense anchor and lost to Cavs).
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Hand checking was eliminated in 1994 in between Jordan's 3-peats.
No.
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NBA.com: Since the hand-checking rule was interpreted differently beginning in the 2004-05 season, the game has opened up. Players are penetrating and the floor is spread. As a result, scoring has risen every season. Was this anticipated back in 2004?
Stu Jackson: No. The scoring increase was not our goal. Our objective was to allow for more offensive freedom by not allowing defenders to hand-, forearm- or body-check ball handlers. By doing so, we encouraged more dribble penetration. As players penetrated more, it produced higher quality shots for the ball handler as well as shots for teammates on passes back out to perimeter. When NBA players get higher quality shots -- having more time to shoot -- they tend to make more of them.
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Joe Johnson from the Atlanta Hawks was asked about the handchecking rule during the summer of 2010: "It benefits me," said Joe Johnson, one of three players (Mike Bibby and Jamal Crawford are the others) on the Hawks' roster who have averaged 20 or more points in a season. "It definitely changes the game because it gives every guy that extra step. "If we could hand check now, the game would be totally different," Johnson said. "If they couldn't hand check back in the day, there are some guys that would have been even better than they were. It would have been nuts for some of the big-time scorers and perimeter players from the 1980s and 1990s. Can you imagine what [Michael] Jordan would have done in a league where you couldn't hand check."
Today's game is almost no contact on perimeter players. Jordan would have been in hog heaven.
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His ppg and FG% dropped in the second three-peat compared to the first. This arm forearm rule was implemented in the 1997-1998 season when Jordan won his last title, yet his ppg dropped from 29.6 to 28.7 and his FG% dropped from 48.6% to 46.5%. Apparently it didn't help him much.
Jordan was older by the 2nd 3-peat? Jordan was 33-35 during the 2nd 3-peat. That's an old guy by NBA standards....especially for a guard.
Contact rules where changed in '04-'05 to allow for more penetration and to create easier scoring opportunities for perimeter players...
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Those were the players he faced in the finals, like I said. He did not face Ewing or Mourning in the finals. I listed the other guys he faced in other rounds below.
He didn't face them in the finals but he still had to face them to get to the finals. Same thing.
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Why did you bold Ewing? He was not a great defender. He made a whopping 3 NBA All-Defensive 2nd teams, 2 of which were before Jordan won a title.
What? Ewing who anchored one of the greatest defensive teams of all time in the NY Knicks of the 90s??? Tell me this is a joke.
An all denfensive 2nd team center in the greatest era for NBA big men?
What? Joke right?
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Ben Wallace (4x defensive player of the year),
Power Forward. Beat Lebron
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Dwight Howard (3x NBA defensive player of the year),
beat Lebron
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Kevin Garnett (1x NBA defensive player of the year),
Beat Lebron.
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Tim Duncan (8x All-Defensive first team)
Beat Lebron.
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are all far better defenders than Ewing.
And all led teams that beat Lebron in the playoffs.
Are you trying to make my point for me?
Ben Wallace is a PF that hasn't really been relevant since 2006.
Dwight Howard is a baby.
KG is a power forward and way past his prime
Tim Duncan was a PF most of his career.
You named TWO legit centers that faced Lebron. Dwight won and Duncan swept him in the finals.
Lebron (well Ray Allen) beat a team with 37 yr old Duncan but I can almost guarantee that with a prime Duncan the Spurs don't lose.
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Reggie Miller beat the big bad Ewing/Knicks in the playoffs too.
And Reggie's Pacers would like be in first place in the east if they played NOW.
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Scottie Pippen almost beat the Knicks in the ECF after Jordan retired. You're trying to build the Knicks up when they were a ~50-win team most years.
Almost only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.
Coached by an all-time great in Pat Riley...yeah they were just an ol' 50 win team. LOL.
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Shaq was 22-23 years old when Jordan faced him.
And the most dominate center in NBA history. Lebron faced 22 yr old Dwight Howard and lost!
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Reggie Miller's Pacers swept him at 21 years old. Young teams don't win in the NBA.
Fine. Lebron gets one ring taken away (Thunder). That gives him 1 vs 6 for Jordan. LOL.
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Why? They are all excellent defenders.
If you have to ask why....
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LOL. Rik Smits
As good or better than anyone you named.
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ROOKIE (which is what Jordan faced) Vlade Divac
Not a rookie. And his numbers in the '91 Playoffs:
13.3 PPG, 6.7 RPG, 56.4% shooting
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are as good as
Ben Wallace, Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, Dwight Howard?
Ben Wallace is a 6'8" power forward that played center. Lebron never beat him.
Tim Duncan in his prime spanked Lebron in the playoffs. The Spurs swept the Cavs.
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I'm a lifelong Pacers fan, I've watched hundreds and hundreds of Rik Smits' games. Roy Hibbert (I've also seen hundreds of his games) is basically Rik Smits with much better defense. Rik Smits wasn't half the defender that Roy Hibbert is, let alone these other guys.
I'll take your word, but point is they're in the same ball park. And Roy Hibbert's team was one bad quarter from beating the stacked Heat team.
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The Bulls were far better inside. The Heat have nothing inside. Remember earlier when you were talking about Hibbert destroying them inside? The Spurs destroyed them inside too. Everyone destroys them inside.
And it's not because there are a lot of great centers in the NBA.
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Pippen and Jordan complimented each other much more than Wade and Lebron too. Wade and Lebron are redundant. Remember last year in the finals in game when the Heat went on big runs with Wade on the bench because Miller came in and finally stretched the defense giving Lebron room to penetrate?
It's kinda hard to say redundant when both are having such great seasons.
What was Lebrons's +/- in 2011 when Wade was having one of the best finals of the decade?
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How is that relevant?
Obviously guards don't play as close to the basket as 3/4s.
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You're talking about rebounding and height as if being 2 inches taller gives you some big rebounding advantage. His teammate Rodman was virtually the same height and weight as Jordan and pulled in 17 rebounds per game.
Being 2 inches taller, 40 lbs heavier and playing closer to the basket certainly give one an advantage.
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Centers average fewer assists because of their position and role, not because being shorter makes it easier to get assists.
Exactly, and Jordan played guard - which puts hime farther from the basket. Jordan didn't guard power forwards either who typical draw defenders inside for more rebounding opportunities.
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That comparison doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense to compare the passing abilities of two wildly different positions either.
Why not? It's certainly possible for a center to be a better passer than a guard...even if he has less overall assist - i.e. Sabonis.
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Leave the pound-for-pound arguments out of it. If you want to go that route then what if Bird had Jordan's athleticism? When people talk about all-time greats they don't make adjustments for physical gifts. If you want to define the best player as whoever got the most out of their physical gifts then Earl Boykins is the best player of all time.
No one is making a lb for lb argument.
Look - Lebron and Jordan are seperated by 0.9 RPG. This is despite Jordan playing guard which gave him less rebounding opportunities and despite him being shorter and 40 lbs lighter. This tells me that Jordan was at least as good or a better rebounder than Lebron. A guard that can average 33 pts while putting up similar rebounding numbers as Lebron James...that's pretty incredible.
"Lebron came into the league at 18 years old fresh out of high school, Jordan came in at 21 after 3 years of college. That's not a very fair comparison."
Isn't it conjecture to say 3 years of college ball makes for a better NBA player? They could be better, worse or about the same.
When did I ever say 3 years of college ball makes someone a better NBA player? I never said anything remotely close to that. I said Lebron's career per game stats are negatively impacted by coming into the league at a much younger age with less high-level experience. 18 year old guys don't come into the NBA and dominate. Kobe Bryant came in the NBA at the same age averaging 7.6 ppg on 42% shooting. Garnett averaged 10 ppg. McGrady 7 ppg.
If you're comparing a guy who came in at 18 vs. a guy who game in at 21 the career averages are going to take a hit for the guy who came in at 18 and the cumulative stats are going to take a hit for the guy who came in at 21. Common sense.
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Originally Posted by eddiehaskell
In that case MJ wins.
Through 28 years old...higher shooting % and more points.
We were talking about scoring efficiency, hence the eFG% and TS%. Lebron wins eFG% and TS% is practically dead even. So no...Jordan doesn't win the efficiency argument, even if you include Lebron coming into the league at 18 in those stats.
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Originally Posted by eddiehaskell
Bold yes.
Not bold no.
You think Tim Duncan and Dirk Nowitzki aren't better than Bosh? What??? And haven't been for the last 4 years???
Did you not see Duncan and Christina Bosh frequently matched up head-to-head last year in the finals with Duncan making him look like a b*tch?
Anthony Davis wasn't better until THIS YEAR. -Anthony Davis was a 17 and 10 player last year and a very good defender/shot blocker. This year it's not even close.
Blake Griffin maybe (fancy dunks don't count and playing with #1 PG helps)- Griffin averaged 22 and 12 before Chris Paul got there. I'm not even much of a Blake Griffin fan but he's still better than Bosh.
Dirk is 35 years old now- So?
Zach Randolph - 17 and 10 player and a real power forward unlike Christina Bosh. He's big, strong, skilled, with a great spot up jumper and a low post game.
Kenneth Faried - 15 and 12 last two years. He rebounds almost twice as much as Bosh and scores 1 ppg less at a higher percentage. Better defender too. You must not have seen much of him.
Tim Duncan - 38 years old- thoroughly outplayed Christina Bosh 6 months ago. What has changed since then?
Serge Ibaka - better defensively, better role player, not a better player- Why? He's an infinitely better defender and a much better rebounder. He actually has a presence inside on defense unlike Bosh. His spot up jumper is better. He scores a whopping 2 ppg less.
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Originally Posted by eddiehaskell
No.
MJ? Shawn Kemp? David Thompson? Dominique Wilkins? Vince Carter? Shaq? David Robinson? Clyde the Glide Drexler? Scottie Pippen? Sir Charles Barkley?
How does naming some good athletes from the 80s-late 90s prove that the overall athletic ability of NBA players hasn't increased?
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell
Their numbers would be higher. Dominant centers of the 90s would murder.
Really? Because we're constantly hearing how the rule changes to the NBA (e.g. no illegal defense) have made it harder for big men to dominate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell
No.
2004-05
• New rules were introduced to curtail hand-checking, clarify blocking fouls and call defensive three seconds to open up the game.
You just said no, then posted a link backing up what I said.
The further clarification regarding the extended forearm took place in 1997-1998- the last year Jordan won a championship. His FG% dropped to 46.5% that year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell
No.
"The most significant change in recent years are frequently referred to as the "hand-check rules," but they are not rule changes at all. Instead, based on the advice of a special 2001 committee led by then-Suns owner Jerry Colangelo, the league ended the boring, grind-it-out defensive style of the Pat Riley Knicks by instructing referees to more tightly enforce existing rules against impeding the progress of offensive players, especially with hand-checking. Since then, any contact that affects an offensive player's speed, rhythm, balance or quickness is a foul -- a change that has goosed up the league's offensive numbers; inspiring some of the greatest offenses in NBA history (including this year's Spurs and the Phoenix Suns of a few years ago); and emboldening rim-attacking players like Derrick Rose, Rajon Rondo, Dwyane Wade and Russell Westbrook."
I don't know where they got that date from. Straight from the NBA rules page....
1997-98
• A defender will not be permitted to use his forearm to impede the progress of an offensive player who is facing the basket in the frontcourt.
Maybe they're thinking of in 2000-2001:
• No contact with either hands or forearms by defenders except in the frontcourt below the free throw line extended in which case the defender may use his forearm only.
The defenders could now make contact with hands and forearms below the free throw line, where as in 1997-1998, they couldn't do it anywhere in the frontcourt.
Here are all the rule changes in 2001-2002:
2001-02
• Illegal defense guidelines will be eliminated in their entirety.
• A new defensive three-second rule will prohibit a defensive player from remaining in the lane for more than three consecutive seconds without closely guarding an offensive player.
• The time that a team has to advance the ball past midcourt will be reduced from ten seconds to eight.
• Brief contact initiated by a defensive player will be allowed if it does not impede the progress of the player with the ball.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell
Ricky Rubio early 2012:
It’s basketball, so in the end of the day, it’s the same thing. But, over here, maybe, you can run more. There are more spaces because there is a defensive 3 second zone. And it’s easy to play here, because of all the spaces you have, and they can’t be more than 3 seconds in the zone. So that it looks easier going to the rim.
The defensive 3-second zone was a fix made necessary by getting rid of illegal defense rules. There was no need for a defensive 3-second zone before they got rid of illegal defense rules because guys couldn't camp out in the lane. They had to play man-to-man defense and stay on their man.
That was a reaction to guys camping out off their man and doubling guys too much as a result of the illegal defense rule changes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell
They had a salary cap in 84-85.
You should look up all the changes to the salary cap since then. The salary cap in 2004-2005 to now is not the same as the salary cap in 84-85.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell
No. Versatility just means you can match up against more players - it doesn't mean you are better defender against the person you are matched up against.
You seriously don't think being able to guard multiple positions is a beneficial skill to have in basketball? I don't even know what to say to that...
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell
Here is another little nugget.
And what if we compare Jordan's first finals to Lebron's first finals?
And before you pull out the but, but, but Lebron was younger card....
Jordan was 27 yrs 3 months old
Lebron was 26 yrs 5 months old
Lebron was 22 years old his first NBA finals, not 26. You do know the Cavs and Spurs played in the finals in 2007, right?
Anyway, we all know Lebron didn't play very well in the 2011 finals. I'm not sure why you keep beating that dead horse as if no one knows that.
BTW, how much better would Lebron be defensively if he were allowed to extend his forearm and hand check guys more on defense like Jordan was able to? Considering he's bigger and stronger than practically every perimeter player in the league.
Would Jordan still have won DPOY at 25 if he weren't allowed to hand check physically weak, scrawny guards like Mark Price?
Last edited by EugeneOnegin; 01-04-2014 at 01:04 PM..
The OP should search the forum for all the threads from 4-5 years ago when people were making the same type of "look where they were at x point in their career" threads only they were using Kobe vs. Jordan instead of Lebron.
When did I ever say 3 years of college ball makes someone a better NBA player? I never said anything remotely close to that. I said Lebron's career per game stats are negatively impacted by coming into the league at a much younger age with less high-level experience. 18 year old guys don't come into the NBA and dominate. Kobe Bryant came in the NBA at the same age averaging 7.6 ppg on 42% shooting. Garnett averaged 10 ppg. McGrady 7 ppg.
There is no way to know if it negatively impacted (or how much) him when he entered the NBA.
Lebron's numbers in his rookie year were darn near as good as they are now aside from shooting %. He put up 21/6/6 as a rookie! By his 2nd year he was at 27/7.4/7.2 shooting 47%! That's as good or better than his numbers have ever been!
Yes, some players take more time to adapt and mature physically. Lebron pretty much hit the ground running...much like Moses Malone. He was 6'8 240lbs as a 16-17 yr old. He was pretty much the same size as a 19 yr old (turned 19 on Dec 29) rookie. MJ came into UNC at about 6'4 175 lbs.
If anything, a "by 28" comparison should benefit Lebron. MJ played 7 seasons by 28 whereas Lebron has played 10 seasons.
And it doesn't matter who you are, coming into the NBA takes adjustment - even if you are a 25 yr old rookie coming out of college.
Put it this way - if MJ and Lebron were both coming into the NBA (MJ at 21 and Lebron at 18) - who do you think would be the first draft pick? Who do you think most people would expect to produce more?
My money is on Lebron.
MJ wasn't even the 1st draft pick in '84...he was 3rd behind Sam Bowie and Hakeem. The only person that would possibly be drafted over high Lebron is maybe Wilt Chamberlain.
Quote:
If you're comparing a guy who came in at 18 vs. a guy who game in at 21 the career averages are going to take a hit for the guy who came in at 18 and the cumulative stats are going to take a hit for the guy who came in at 21. Common sense.
Lebron's 2nd year stat:
27.2 PPG, 7.4 RPG, 7.2 APG - common sense says that doesn't happen to a 2nd year player out of high school.
But guess what - Lebron defies common sense. He's one of the freakiest athletes the world has ever seen.
Quote:
We were talking about scoring efficiency, hence the eFG% and TS%. Lebron wins eFG% and TS% is practically dead even. So no...Jordan doesn't win the efficiency argument, even if you include Lebron coming into the league at 18 in those stats.
The stats you posted had them dead even with Jordan scoring more. Jordan wins.
Quote:
You think Tim Duncan and Dirk Nowitzki aren't better than Bosh? What??? And haven't been for the last 4 years???
I thought we were talking right now?
Tim Duncan still contributes well because he can play limited minutes and he's part of a well coached system. Would I pick 35-38 yr old Duncan over prime Bosh? No.
Dirk isn't what he used to be 3-4 yrs ago. He's now 35 yrs old to. 21 PPG/5.8 RPG shooting 49%. Still good but those numbers are no better than prime Bosh...worse even.
Quote:
Did you not see Duncan and Christina Bosh frequently matched up head-to-head last year in the finals with Duncan making him look like a b*tch?
You saw Bosh playing out of position...that's why they brought in Oden and have been rumored to want Bynum. Regardless, head-to-head matchups aren't the best way to evaluate who's better.
Quote:
Anthony Davis wasn't better until THIS YEAR. -Anthony Davis was a 17 and 10 player last year and a very good defender/shot blocker. This year it's not even close.
Umm, rookie Anthony Davis was at 13.5 PPG/8.2 RPG.
If you'll take that over prime Bosh, I will trade you a Sam Bowie rookie card for a Michael Jordan rookie card.
Quote:
Blake Griffin maybe (fancy dunks don't count and playing with #1 PG helps)- Griffin averaged 22 and 12 before Chris Paul got there. I'm not even much of a Blake Griffin fan but he's still better than Bosh.
Those numbers are no better than Bosh. Bosh averaged 24/11 in his last year as the main man in Toronto. He's fully capable of putting up those numbers now.
Quote:
Dirk is 35 years old now- So?
Not better than prime Bosh.
Quote:
Zach Randolph - 17 and 10 player and a real power forward unlike Christina Bosh. He's big, strong, skilled, with a great spot up jumper and a low post game.
Your bias against Bosh is showing.
Quote:
Kenneth Faried - 15 and 12 last two years. He rebounds almost twice as much as Bosh and scores 1 ppg less at a higher percentage. Better defender too. You must not have seen much of him.
Numbers no better than Bosh. Bosh plays with Lebron and Wade. His scoring has went from 24ppg to 17 ppg...
Quote:
Tim Duncan - 38 years old- thoroughly outplayed Christina Bosh 6 months ago. What has changed since then?
Bosh playing out of position.
Quote:
Serge Ibaka - better defensively, better role player, not a better player- Why? He's an infinitely better defender and a much better rebounder. He actually has a presence inside on defense unlike Bosh. His spot up jumper is better. He scores a whopping 2 ppg less.
Better defender. I concede that. Better overall depends on what piece a team needs. If you need a PF that can give you 25 PPG - of course you go with Bosh.
Quote:
How does naming some good athletes from the 80s-late 90s prove that the overall athletic ability of NBA players hasn't increased?
How does bringing up Rudy Gay prove today's athletes are better?
Quote:
Really? Because we're constantly hearing how the rule changes to the NBA (e.g. no illegal defense) have made it harder for big men to dominate.
So you concede that the rule changes have made it easier for perimeter players?
You also mentioned Tim Duncan dominating....
The thing is, no centers in today's game have the skillset of 90s centers.
Quote:
You just said no, then posted a link backing up what I said.
The further clarification regarding the extended forearm took place in 1997-1998- the last year Jordan won a championship. His FG% dropped to 46.5% that year.
Apparently even further clarification took place in '04-'05 - hence all the quotes I've given from multiples sources. It's obvious that the NBA has continually made rule changes favoring perimeter players since the late 90s. It appears '04-'05 was the latest rule change that gave them even more freedom.
In 97-98 Jordan was 35 yrs old. I can show you 1000s of players with FG% drops as they age? Why do you keep avoiding this point?
It's as if you expect Jordan to be as efficient at 35 as he was at 27.
Quote:
I don't know where they got that date from. Straight from the NBA rules page....
1997-98
• A defender will not be permitted to use his forearm to impede the progress of an offensive player who is facing the basket in the frontcourt.
Maybe they're thinking of in 2000-2001:
• No contact with either hands or forearms by defenders except in the frontcourt below the free throw line extended in which case the defender may use his forearm only.
The defenders could now make contact with hands and forearms below the free throw line, where as in 1997-1998, they couldn't do it anywhere in the frontcourt.
Here are all the rule changes in 2001-2002:
2001-02
• Illegal defense guidelines will be eliminated in their entirety.
• A new defensive three-second rule will prohibit a defensive player from remaining in the lane for more than three consecutive seconds without closely guarding an offensive player.
• The time that a team has to advance the ball past midcourt will be reduced from ten seconds to eight.
• Brief contact initiated by a defensive player will be allowed if it does not impede the progress of the player with the ball.
What does 97-98 have to do with Michael Jordan's prime? Jordan was an old man by that time.
I don't understand what you're trying to argue here. All the evidence and comments from players indicate that well after Jordan's prime, the NBA adjusted to rules and the interpretation of rules to favor perimeter scoring.
Here is another source:
Quote:
The NBA six years ago literally put the ball in point guards’ hands.
Frustrated the league had evolved into a physical, plodding game, a major rule change abolished hand-checking above the free-throw line.
"The game has changed big-time,” said Dallas point guard Jason Kidd. "When I came in you could hand check and hold a little bit. You could definitely be more physical with the ball-handler. Now if you just touch them it’s a foul. It definitely gives quicker guys an advantage.”
It’s no coincidence the first two years after the rule change Suns point guard Steve Nash won the next two MVP awards in 2005 and 2006.
Nash’s stats before and after the rule change are dramatically different.
Before perimeter hand-checking was prohibited, Nash averaged 12.5 points and 6.0 assists.
The past six seasons, Nash has averaged 17.2 points and 11.0 assists.
"The game favors the perimeter player and the quicker players,” said Hall of Famer Larry Bird, the Indiana Pacers president. "I really don’t know how they can be guarded. What I do know is it’s a different game than when I played.”
Are you going to argue with Jason Kidd and Larry Bird too?
The defensive 3-second zone was a fix made necessary by getting rid of illegal defense rules. There was no need for a defensive 3-second zone before they got rid of illegal defense rules because guys couldn't camp out in the lane. They had to play man-to-man defense and stay on their man.
That was a reaction to guys camping out off their man and doubling guys too much as a result of the illegal defense rule changes.
Rule changes have favored perimeter scoring. Jordan and Lebron are both perimeter players.
Quote:
You should look up all the changes to the salary cap since then. The salary cap in 2004-2005 to now is not the same as the salary cap in 84-85.
I never said it was the same.
Quote:
You seriously don't think being able to guard multiple positions is a beneficial skill to have in basketball? I don't even know what to say to that...
It's beneficial put it doesn't make one a better defender. Lets say one player can play B- defense on 3 positions whereas another player can play A+ defense on 2 positions. Who is the better defender?
Quote:
Lebron was 22 years old his first NBA finals, not 26. You do know the Cavs and Spurs played in the finals in 2007, right?
In which his team was swept.
I figured you might try to pull the "Lebron's team wasn't good" argument so I used Lebron's stats when he first had a stacked team in Miami.
However, it appears you are sinking back to the "Lebron was just a 22 year old baby argument"
Do you really want to use the '07 Finals?
Lebron - 22 PPG, 7 RPG, 6.8 APG - 35.6% shooting
Quote:
Anyway, we all know Lebron didn't play very well in the 2011 finals. I'm not sure why you keep beating that dead horse as if no one knows that.
Compare:
Lebron's first finals vs Jordan's first finals - Jordan wins
Lebron's worst finals performance to Jordan's worst finals performance - Jordan wins
Lebron's best finals vs Jordan's best finals - Jordan wins
I don't see where you have a leg to stand on.
Face it - Lebron laid two big. fat, stinky, rotten eggs in the finals.
Jordan never laid an egg in the finals.
Quote:
BTW, how much better would Lebron be defensively if he were allowed to extend his forearm and hand check guys more on defense like Jordan was able to? Considering he's bigger and stronger than practically every perimeter player in the league.
Haha. Now we're off onto another subject.
Quote:
Would Jordan still have won DPOY at 25 if he weren't allowed to hand check physically weak, scrawny guards like Mark Price?
Are you really calling 4x All Star Mark Price small? Are you calling him an easy check? You do know he was a PG right?
Have you watched much NBA basketball recently?
Mark Price is as big as: Allen Iverson, Brandon Jennings, Chris Paul, Steve Nash, Isiah Thomas, Mike Conley, Darren Collison, Nate Robinson, Will Bynum, JJ Berea and others....
Last edited by eddiehaskell; 01-04-2014 at 09:44 PM..
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All the fanboys say he would average 50 ppg with no hand checking. 
Of course being more versatile makes someone a better defender.
Both great players in their eras
