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I'm just hitting on the bigger/faster/stronger line. Jordan is basically a much more efficient version of this year's MVP. A better Westbrook would be a very, very, scary sight...the Thunder probably already have 2 rings and maybe a 3rd this year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Cleric
You mean a much more efficient scorer? Westbrook has the lower FG percentage, but not bad at all. And, he's doing it against better athletes than Jordan faced, night after night.
If Westbrook was as good as Jordan, I think he'd still have zero rings. Edit: Well, maybe one.
This is a ludicrous comparison. Jordan was a far more efficient scorer. And he was a great defender. Westbrook is sui generis: an ultra high volume, athletic scorer who makes all of his teammates worse and doesn't play defense. He is entertaining to watch, in the same sense that Boogie in Sacramento was entertaining to watch: a talented train wreck unfolding in slow motion.
Jordan and Kareem are the only two players I can form a winning argument of over Lebron. So Lebron would be my #3 at worst, #2 at best, but he isn't #1 yet, if ever...
Isaiah Thomas (the real one, not the Celtic) just said last week that Magic never won a title without Kareem. How much of his success was predicated by playing with Kareem? These things have to be weighted when we're splitting hairs on the GOAT list. Magic was great, but was he even really a better player than Bird? What was the lime of thinking watching both in the '80s?
So there has to be a gap between Kareem and Magic, they aren't 2-3. Wherever you put Bird, you have to put Magic and Kobe (in any order). I can entertain an argument for any order. None of these players were really better basketball players than Lebron James, so at best, the highest ranking for any of those guys should be #4...
Wilt and Russell are going to naturally continue to slide down the totem pole. Through no fault of their own, but think of it like this:
The NBA is the youngest league of the Big 4 sports, and being younger, two of its first big superstars were who? Wilt and Russell. So they set the standard for what a great basketball player should be. The game was much more unathletic when they play, much less advanced, with far fewer teams. As the competition and players got better, we began seeing players challenging the "original GOAT's"--in the 70s it was really Kareem, in the 80s Bird and Magic, 90s Michael, so on and so forth. And you have to be a really great player to be compared to Wilt and Russell, so when you account for degrees of difficulty and change in era, we can't just throw those two at the top when The League was 15/20/25 years old when they were dominant. The NBA is over 70 years old now. 45 years of basketball have passed since those two were in their prime. That matters and we can't punish later greats for playing in later times...
Wilt, Russell, Duncan, and Shaq are interchangeable and grouped together. There are 5-7 other guys who could have a case as a low Top 10 (Hakeem and Big O being two big examples, Durant headed towards this territory). I think you have a decent list, better than most!
Once again your bias for Lebron has to stop bro lol
You can make an argument for Magic as the best player ever as well !!! Kareem got injured in the 1980 finals and Magic the point guard started as center and put up ridiculous numbers of 42 points,15 rebs & 7 ast as a freaking rookie !!!!!! No other player in history won their first title as a rookie like that. He also can play all 5 positions and is arguably the best leader of all time.
Sure he played with Kareem but he also led the Lakers to a title and other finals without him. 5 out of 9 in the finals is better than LeBron either way you slice it.
Now Duncan also led his team over Lebron 2 out of 3 times and really 3 if not for a Ray Allen miracle.Whether Duncan was the best player on the floor or not he was clearly out of his prime in 2013 and yet he still was a force to be reckoned with.So Lebron is not over Duncan either.
Kobe vs Lebron is a dead issue at this point but i will say this, Everything Lebron is better at than Kobe,he's also better at than Jordan except for field goal % because unlike Kobe,Jordan was more of a slasher and took smarter shots.Where Kobe would shoot over 3 or 4 defenders until he could shoot no more.
Lebron is better at rebs than Jordan & Kobe
Better at passing than Jordan & Kobe
Stronger & bigger than Jordan & Kobe but that's it.
Stats will favor Lebron over Kobe because of Kobe first few years on the bench and also him sharing the ball with Shaq for another 5 years !!! So if all we see is stats than Wilt is the best ever.Westbrook just put up stats nobody has except Oscar Robertson so is Westbrook better than Jordan & Kobe ? Is Blake Griffin better than Kobe because he has a higher field goal % and can play 5 different positions ? Cmon now !!!
But be real with yourself for once,Kobe mastered everything Jordan could do on the court and in his prime he probably was more skilled on offense due to having a better 3 point shot & dribbles.
Footwork goes to Jordan & Kobe over Lebron
Fadeaway goes to Jordan & Kobe over Lebron
1 on 1 defense goes to Jordan & Kobe over Lebron
Solid jumpshot
Freethrows
Game winners
Dribbles
Post game
Killer instinct and a few more things go to MJ & Kobe
But stats wont tell that so you have to use the eye test.
Since Lebron came in the league the only time they had evenly matched teams was around 2008 - 10
In 05 - 07 Kobe played with the worst starting lineup of any great in history,Luke Walton,Smush,Kwame,Walker lol
Nobody remember these guys !!! At least Lebron had All stars in Larry hughes & Wally,than Donyell Marshall,
Drew Gooden,Ilguaskas,Damon jones.
Than from 11 -13 Lebron was on that Miami SuperTeam where Kobe was left with run down Gasol because the owners blocked that Chris Paul trade.
Now if were using Championships than here we have,
Bill Russell - 11 rings
Jordan - 6 rings
Kareem - 6 rings
Magic - 5 rings
Kobe - 5 rings
Duncan - 5 rings
Shaq - 4 rings
Bird - 3 rings
Lebron - 3 rings
Wilt & Hakeem - 2 rings
Lebron wins another title over this Warriors team than you gotta give it to him but don't act like Kyrie & Love aren't Supeerstar hof's.
Didnt Kobe beat a SuperTeam in the finals as well against the 08 - 10 Celtics ? Garnett,Pierce,Allen,Rondo !! All Kobe had was 1 hall of famer in Gasol.
And what if Durant wins a few title's,is he up there with Lebron ? What can Lebron do that Durant cant ? They both can guard all 5 positions,Lebron is a better passer but KD is the better scorer so let's be honest here.
Once again your bias for Lebron has to stop bro lol
You can make an argument for Magic as the best player ever as well !!! Kareem got injured in the 1980 finals and Magic the point guard started as center and put up ridiculous numbers of 42 points,15 rebs & 7 ast as a freaking rookie !!!!!! No other player in history won their first title as a rookie like that. He also can play all 5 positions and is arguably the best leader of all time.
Sure he played with Kareem but he also led the Lakers to a title and other finals without him. 5 out of 9 in the finals is better than LeBron either way you slice it.
Now Duncan also led his team over Lebron 2 out of 3 times and really 3 if not for a Ray Allen miracle.Whether Duncan was the best player on the floor or not he was clearly out of his prime in 2013 and yet he still was a force to be reckoned with.So Lebron is not over Duncan either.
Kobe vs Lebron is a dead issue at this point but i will say this, Everything Lebron is better at than Kobe,he's also better at than Jordan except for field goal % because unlike Kobe,Jordan was more of a slasher and took smarter shots.Where Kobe would shoot over 3 or 4 defenders until he could shoot no more.
Lebron is better at rebs than Jordan & Kobe
Better at passing than Jordan & Kobe
Stronger & bigger than Jordan & Kobe but that's it.
Stats will favor Lebron over Kobe because of Kobe first few years on the bench and also him sharing the ball with Shaq for another 5 years !!! So if all we see is stats than Wilt is the best ever.Westbrook just put up stats nobody has except Oscar Robertson so is Westbrook better than Jordan & Kobe ? Is Blake Griffin better than Kobe because he has a higher field goal % and can play 5 different positions ? Cmon now !!!
But be real with yourself for once,Kobe mastered everything Jordan could do on the court and in his prime he probably was more skilled on offense due to having a better 3 point shot & dribbles.
Footwork goes to Jordan & Kobe over Lebron
Fadeaway goes to Jordan & Kobe over Lebron
1 on 1 defense goes to Jordan & Kobe over Lebron
Solid jumpshot
Freethrows
Game winners
Dribbles
Post game
Killer instinct and a few more things go to MJ & Kobe
But stats wont tell that so you have to use the eye test.
Since Lebron came in the league the only time they had evenly matched teams was around 2008 - 10
In 05 - 07 Kobe played with the worst starting lineup of any great in history,Luke Walton,Smush,Kwame,Walker lol
Nobody remember these guys !!! At least Lebron had All stars in Larry hughes & Wally,than Donyell Marshall,
Drew Gooden,Ilguaskas,Damon jones.
Than from 11 -13 Lebron was on that Miami SuperTeam where Kobe was left with run down Gasol because the owners blocked that Chris Paul trade.
Now if were using Championships than here we have,
Bill Russell - 11 rings
Jordan - 6 rings
Kareem - 6 rings
Magic - 5 rings
Kobe - 5 rings
Duncan - 5 rings
Shaq - 4 rings
Bird - 3 rings
Lebron - 3 rings
Wilt & Hakeem - 2 rings
Lebron wins another title over this Warriors team than you gotta give it to him but don't act like Kyrie & Love aren't Supeerstar hof's.
Didnt Kobe beat a SuperTeam in the finals as well against the 08 - 10 Celtics ? Garnett,Pierce,Allen,Rondo !! All Kobe had was 1 hall of famer in Gasol.
And what if Durant wins a few title's,is he up there with Lebron ? What can Lebron do that Durant cant ? They both can guard all 5 positions,Lebron is a better passer but KD is the better scorer so let's be honest here.
Rah rah rah lol...
This isn't about Lebron vs Jordan or Kobe...
And obviously ring count is not the determining factor in the GOAT list because if it was, Russell would be #1 forever and always. So counting rings is a a secondary metric, not a primary one...
You my dog P, but you can't argue any topic without throwing Kobe in there lol. Kobe is not Top 5, and the highest he could be is #6 because he isn't playing anymore. And if you listen to sports radio and read these articles, #6 is kinda high for Kobe. Nobody thinks as highly of him as you lol. I personally think he is right with Magic for next-best Laker...
Everything else you said, you just refuse to look beyond ring count and "Super Teams". I'll tell you what, we'll all agree that Bill Russell is the #1 GOAT because he led the original SuperTeam, the '60s Celtics, and has the most rings. Agree on that and wash your Kobe jersey and we'll call it a day hahahaha....
I'm just clowning but you gotta come with something better than your typical strawman arguments!
And obviously ring count is not the determining factor in the GOAT list because if it was, Russell would be #1 forever and always. So counting rings is a a secondary metric, not a primary one...
You my dog P, but you can't argue any topic without throwing Kobe in there lol. Kobe is not Top 5, and the highest he could be is #6 because he isn't playing anymore. And if you listen to sports radio and read these articles, #6 is kinda high for Kobe. Nobody thinks as highly of him as you lol. I personally think he is right with Magic for next-best Laker...
Everything else you said, you just refuse to look beyond ring count and "Super Teams". I'll tell you what, we'll all agree that Bill Russell is the #1 GOAT because he led the original SuperTeam, the '60s Celtics, and has the most rings. Agree on that and wash your Kobe jersey and we'll call it a day hahahaha....
I'm just clowning but you gotta come with something better than your typical strawman arguments!
Moral of the story, you're the only person on this board in the last year, and one of few people period, who think Kobe is still better than Lebron. 99% have accepted that he isn't, the publications and sportswriters who follow the game for a living have all accepted Lebron ran by Kobe 2-3 years ago, at least...
I would throw Kobe in the lower Top 10, but as you can see, nobody really agrees with me. Kobe's average rank in these reputable articles is 11.5, so there s something to him being between 10-12 all-time. Not a single publication has him above 10, and honestly that would be a difficult argument to make...
Conversely, Lebron's average rank is #3. Not a single publication has him lower than #5, and though you may not like it, there is a very weak case to argue against him as Top 5. He's there...the thing with Lebron is you can absolutely debate his position within the Top 5. I can't really argue with anywhere at 2-5, and he's not at #1 yet. But he's Top 5 and staying there, no matter what irrelevant stuff like Super this or that you want to bring up. He's an easy decision as Top 5 and can make a case as #2. He and Kobe aren't peers, and I watched them both play. Kobe is a barely Top 10 player, but likely many people would say he's just outside the 10 spot. There is a substantial gap between Lebron and Kobe and everyone except you seems to know this...
Not sure how you can put Durant in this list. He's done absolutely zero to date.
I'm not ranking resumes, I'm ranking basketball players. He's a seven-foot wing capable of handling the rock and shooting 50/40/90 and averaging 8 boards and four assists. This year, he finished in the top-10 for blocks, per game...from the wing. We have not seen ten people who were better at the game of basketball.
As for his resume:
-MVP
-8-time All-NBA (six first-team)
-8-time All Star
-Four time scoring champ, with the highest career ppg of ALL active players
-4th place in all-time NBA ppg
-8th highest career PER in NBA history
-2 time Olympic Gold medalist
That's a hall-of-fame resume, without a ring...and he's getting a ring in a couple weeks.
1. Jordan
1. Wilt
1. Kareem
1. LeBron
5. Shaq
6. Bird
7. Magic
8. Durant
9. Duncan
10. Kobe
and I'm not so sure about #10.
I think a ring will push Durant into Top 20, on the lower end (like 18-20). He's got a whole lot more to prove to be considered Top 10, but I can easily concede he's on that track. One thing for certain, a win with a team that was already Top 5 ever without him doesn't make him a Top 10 player...
As it is, the publications I listed have Durant ranked at 22, 24, 22, and 43, for an average rank of 27.75. I think coming into this year most people, probably 80%, would have said he was Top 25 already. None of these publications had him above #22, which I think is fair, but winning a ring will bump him up, rightfully so. It's just that he won't shoot up because of the fashion and circumstances in which he went about getting the ring...
That said, if he goes on a streak of multiple titles, he's going to be leaving some historic figures in the dust. That's a fact. As it is, he's already been the #2 player of this era, and sealing the deal with a chip will undeniably and certifiably make him Top 20...
I'm not ranking resumes, I'm ranking basketball players. He's a seven-foot wing capable of handling the rock and shooting 50/40/90 and averaging 8 boards and four assists. This year, he finished in the top-10 for blocks, per game...from the wing. We have not seen ten people who were better at the game of basketball.
As for his resume:
-MVP
-8-time All-NBA (six first-team)
-8-time All Star
-Four time scoring champ, with the highest career ppg of ALL active players
-4th place in all-time NBA ppg
-8th highest career PER in NBA history
-2 time Olympic Gold medalist
That's a hall-of-fame resume, without a ring...and he's getting a ring in a couple weeks.
thats silly.
just the 2 guys you put behind him. both MUCH better resumes.
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