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The "here, score" approach you talk of- is not a sound approach against the Warriors. You can't have a dribbler/shot clock depleting/scorer for stretches of the game and beat them. You got to be balanced. I think this trade allows that.
But then you go and get two players who are dribblers/shot clock depleters. Only they are worse than Kyrie is at this point in their careers.
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Originally Posted by eastcoastbias
There are way too many focused on Rose or Wade- they aren't making up for Kyrie- every person with a brain knows that. The discussion should be on Crowder+Wade+Rose+Green and god willing a healthy pissed off I. Thomas.
There's more focus on Wade and Rose because one of those two is likely to be a starter with possibly both starting. There's not much point in discussing bench role players when your starting five is completely outgunned. And yes, a starting 5 with Rose and Wade is going to be completely outgunned against a space and pace high temp offense like the Warriors'.
And here's my thing with IT: I don't want to sound like a pessimist, but if he comes back just a little bit slower he's not going to be the same player. It's one thing for Wade or Klay Thompson to get hurt and lose a little speed, but it's an entirely different thing for a 5'9 guy (in shoes) to lose even a little bit of a step. With his physical disadvantages, he can't afford to lose any of his quickness and expect to perform anywhere close to the level he did last season.
Last edited by BajanYankee; 09-27-2017 at 04:03 PM..
I've been saying this for years. If Cleveland makes it to the finals, Steph & Klay can breathe a little easier. Kyrie was a difficult matchup for them.
Yeah, he was. I wouldn't bank on anyone on their current roster giving them this kind of production.
Real question: Will the Cavs beat the Celtics next year? Of course, the Cavs have Lebron, so there's that. But Brad Stevens has a lot of talent to work with. I think the expectation is that the Cs' core will need time to gel and mature, but I wouldn't be surprised if they get things kicked into a relatively high gear by ASW.
I wonder how Lue will manage LeBron's minutes this season. No way he can play the number of minutes he did last season. And for the team to be effective with LeBron resting more the "LeBron sets everyone up" offense won't cut it. For the Cavs to challenge the Warriors their offense needs an overhaul. On defense Crowder is a good. But looking at their roster no one else really is. Even LeBron has noticeably slipped.
This is a good point. The Cavs' offensive system is basically "Lebron." I never thought the issue was that Lebron didn't have someone to relieve him so he could get rest. I always thought the issue was more that the Cavs don't have an offense when Lebron's off the floor other than Kyrie ISOs. But I suppose they'll now have D-Rose/D-Wade/IT4 ISOs instead of Kyrie ISOs.
The Spurs and the Warriors, on the other hand, kinda do the same thing, or at least something similar, regardless of the personnel they have on the floor. It's a ball movement-based offense. Needless to say, any offense featuring Wade or Rose will not have a lot of ball movement. The "there's only one ball" criticisms people made of the KD trade last season are definitely MUCH more relevant to the situation the Cavs currently have.
That's the main difference between the Warriors/Spurs and others like the Cavs, Thunder, etc...coaching. As soon as a team with two All Stars adds a third (former) AS, people think they're gonna contend for the title. But they still have mediocre (at best) coaches who haven't figured out how to balance their offensive threats and create a system of ball movement like Pop, Kerr & Budenholtzer (when he had players to use it).
Real question: Will the Cavs beat the Celtics next year? Of course, the Cavs have Lebron, so there's that. But Brad Stevens has a lot of talent to work with. I think the expectation is that the Cs' core will need time to gel and mature, but I wouldn't be surprised if they get things kicked into a relatively high gear by ASW.
I can agree with you that this Cavs experiment may or may not work. Personally I'm a little intrigued by the five or so added parts but concerned with the one missing piece. I think you are stuck on what you think the starting five will be and not looking at the potential rotations. The Cavs have a ton to play with rotation wise. In a perfect world I'd take another lock down defender. I expect a hungry Cavs team- you have many guys on the squad playing for their last chip or playing for their last big contract or playing with a chip on their Shoulder (Thomas).
I not only expect the Cavs to beat the Celtics this year, but I don't expect the Celtics to be better than last last year based on their current roster. They lost too many good components of that team last year. I think folks underestimate how lopsided the series with Cleveland was- Indy and Toronto were more competitive.
I think the composition of the roster last season really fit Brad Stevens well- let's see how he handles Kyrie when he does his own thing (sometimes its great sometimes its not so great) in the 4th quarter. I've urged the Celtics to go all in all and get one more big piece. They are enamored with Jaylen Brown who quite honestly I don't see as a pivotal piece in a championship team (great athlete trying to play basketball). I'm not sold on Gordon Hayward either. I love Kyrie but things will get a little tougher without Bron. Al Horford is one the worst contracts in basketball
I can agree with you that this Cavs experiment may or may not work. Personally I'm a little intrigued by the five or so added parts but concerned with the one missing piece. I think you are stuck on what you think the starting five will be and not looking at the potential rotations. The Cavs have a ton to play with rotation wise. In a perfect world I'd take another lock down defender. I expect a hungry Cavs team- you have many guys on the squad playing for their last chip or playing for their last big contract or playing with a chip on their Shoulder (Thomas).
Perhaps. I would probably be less concerned if those potential rotations you're talking about included improved defense. But they got defenders who are as bad if not worse on defense as Kyrie but not as dynamic on the offensive end. Crowder is a solid defender, but it's not an "upgrade" per se because no one in the NBA can guard KD anyway.
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Originally Posted by eastcoastbias
I think the composition of the roster last season really fit Brad Stevens well- let's see how he handles Kyrie when he does his own thing (sometimes its great sometimes its not so great) in the 4th quarter. I've urged the Celtics to go all in all and get one more big piece. They are enamored with Jaylen Brown who quite honestly I don't see as a pivotal piece in a championship team (great athlete trying to play basketball). I'm not sold on Gordon Hayward either. I love Kyrie but things will get a little tougher without Bron. Al Horford is one the worst contracts in basketball
Some say that IT4 excelled because of Stevens' system and that Kyrie wanted to go to Boston to play in a system with better spacing and ball movement. It actually makes some sense since IT4 never made an All-Star team until he went to Boston. The thinking is that if Kyrie can get buckets in a stagnant, Lebron-dominated offense, then imagine what he can do in a more free-flowing Brad Stevens offense. And on the flipside, can IT4 be as effective in an offensive set where Lebron is holding the ball more than anyone else and where the spacing and ball movement won't be like Boston's.
I love Kyrie but things will get a little tougher without Bron.
I wonder why people seem to think this. I am lifting the following from insidehoops.
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First of all, Lebron and Harden are the only non-point guards in the top 50 for time of possession.. His abnormally high time of possession from the forward position means that he adds a 2nd player with high time of possession to the court IN ADDITION TO THE EXISTING POINT GUARD.. This means his teammates have less time with the ball than other teams, whose forwards have a normal time of possession for forwards.
Along the same lines, starting fives normally have only 1 ball-dominant, low-assisted player that teammates rarely throw assists to - the point guard.. But Lebron's point guard style from the forward position adds a 2nd low-assisted player that teammates can't throw assists to - he turns a normally high assisted forward position into a low assisted one, which lowers the assist capacity of the team relative to other teams whose forwards are highly-assisted.
Lebron's effect of turning teammates from playmakers to play-finishers prevents the kind of equal-opportunity offenses that the the Mavs, Spurs, Warriors, and 90's Bulls used, where all five guys SHARE the playmaking duties more equally.. But in Lebron's case, since his monopolization of the playmaking prevents the best brand of basketball, various equal or less-talented teams have pulled upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).
TL;DR - Lebron's ball dominance only allows for only one playmaker on the court at a time.
I actually think Kyrie's stats and overall play will get better, not worse. He was already an All-Star before Lebron came back to Cleveland. At 25, he's just entering his prime and will be doing so with a better coach and an All-Star sidekick.
I just wonder who's going to be the Cavs' go-to option in the 4th quarter against Golden State, assuming each team makes it that far. As great as Lebron is, we all know he's more Magic than Michael/Kobe at this point.
I wonder how Lue will manage LeBron's minutes this season. No way he can play the number of minutes he did last season. And for the team to be effective with LeBron resting more the "LeBron sets everyone up" offense won't cut it. For the Cavs to challenge the Warriors their offense needs an overhaul. On defense Crowder is a good. But looking at their roster no one else really is. Even LeBron has noticeably slipped.
One thing the Cavs have going for them is they play in the East. But I think that worked against them last season. They rolled through the East playoffs so easily they weren't prepared for Golden State's onslaught. All of this to say Wade can help on the margins. But I don't think he moves the needle much as this stage of his career.
Typical Warriors fan, who thinks that everybody in the NBA is inferior, and that the Warriors will cake walk to a repeat. LOL!
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Only they are worse than Kyrie is at this point in their careers.
