Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Thank you all so much for the insight! I am sure it will prove invaluable in making our decision. I seem to be developing an affinity for the islands already and think I have my mind made up. Now to get the better half on board.
Hotzcatz- I guess I'd be a Haole lol tan skin with blonde hair and blue eyes! german/french/cherokee indian, odd combo, I know. Im pretty sure popolo means african american and da kine could mean almost anything right ? The da kine thing is still somewhat confusing lol
First I've heard someone say that many locals do not talk that way and may take offense.
Probably one of the more interesting things I've heard...makes complete sense though...
When she's with Hawaiian friends who speak pidgin, my wife can turn on the thick plantation pidgin she grew up with. When she's with Hawaiian friends who don't speak pidgin (except for a handful of phrases), but just have the typical Hawaiian accent, that's how she talks. And when she's talking with Mainlanders, she dials it back even further, although her accent never disappears completely.
I lived in the South for 25 years, and one of the first things I learned was that there is no single Southern accent – there's quite a range, which varies by regions and social class. It's similar in Hawaii, although less diverse. I can understand the really think pidgin now, and I noticed that my wife's Portagee relatives from Honoka'a have a slightly different accent than her Hilo friends and relatives.
As for trying to speak pidgin too soon and causing offense, it's like trying to fit into any long-standing culture by believing you know all the nuances and rules, when you really don't. For the OP, it would be like a life-long New Yorker moving to Texas, immediately buying a Stetson, cowboy boots, blue jeans, work shirts, and a pick-up truck, and speaking in what he thinks is a Texas drawl, and throwing in plenty of what he believes are local idiomatic expressions ("Well, cut off my legs and call me shorty! Say, anyone fer a PBR an' a shot o' Jackie D?"), when in fact they're his impressions of bad accents from Hollywood movies. The implication is, "Your culture is so simple that anyone can figure it out in a couple of weeks." My stepsons still laugh at me when I try to speak pidgin, even though I think I'm pretty good at it now (and I'm probably not). But after 12 years of being immersed in the culture, phrases like "da kine," "time to go nene," "pilau!," and "pau hana" roll off my tongue without my even thinking about it. That's when you know you can use the words convincingly.
Anyone who's interested in pidgin should check out Da Jesus Book, which is the New Testament translated into pidgin. For its intended audience, it's quite serious, but for outsiders who have some familiarity with pidgin, it's both hilarious and charming.
Thank you all so much for the insight! I am sure it will prove invaluable in making our decision. I seem to be developing an affinity for the islands already and think I have my mind made up. Now to get the better half on board.
Hotzcatz- I guess I'd be a Haole lol tan skin with blonde hair and blue eyes! german/french/cherokee indian, odd combo, I know. Im pretty sure popolo means african american and da kine could mean almost anything right ? The da kine thing is still somewhat confusing lol
I hate to generalize (although I often do), but most Hawaiians I've met have been extremely friendly – and so have most Texans I've met. I lived in Georgia for 25 years, and I've noticed quite a few similarities between Southern and Hawaiian culture and attitudes. If you don't already know, the second-largest cattle ranch in the US is the Parker Ranch on the Big Island, after the King Ranch in Texas. My wife was raised on another cattle ranch on the BI, and from what I know, paniolo ranch culture there is similar to ranch culture elsewhere. There's a good documentary on the subject by Edgy Lee called Paniolo 'o Hawaii. (Anything by Edgy Lee is worth watching.)
From what you've written thus far, I think you'd enjoy and fit into Hawaii. As others have said, you need to visit first. And, of course, consider the needs and wants of your wife and kids. Read the threads about the school system.
As for pidgin, I doubt there are many similarities to Cajun or Creole, as they come from different sources, but the principle is the same. I came across a site on Singlish (Singapore English), and it's very similar to Hawaiian pidgin. The Chinese linguistic influence is huge.
"Da kine" is what you use when you can't think of the word you want (sort of like "what's his name" or "whatchamacallit"), except the other person always knows exactly who, what, or where you mean: "Remember when me met da kine at da kine fo' da kine?" "Ho, yeah – he was really da kine, no?" Translation: "Remember when we met Joe's cousin at that park near Richardson's Beach for that barbecue?" "Oh, yeah – he really got drunk, didn't he?"
I came across a site on Singlish (Singapore English), and it's very similar to Hawaiian pidgin. The Chinese linguistic influence is huge.
Yeah, that's kind of what I hear in my ear, when I hear or try to read pidgin. It just always strikes me as what a chinese, non-native english speaker, might use to communicate a message.
Before I lived in Japan, I was in Korea for many years. As I was single and very social, I recall often having to use 'Konglish' to communicate a message. 'Me no beer tonight'. 'you beer drink?' 'I go eye-shopping tomorrow'.
Strikes me as somewhat similar...completely different...but same concept. The only way to really get your message across sometimes. Granted, Hawaiians can understand the message without pidgin, but once upon a time, I'm sure it was the only way to get the message across back in the day.
First I've heard someone say that many locals do not talk that way and may take offense.
Probably one of the more interesting things I've heard...makes complete sense though...
Tiger Beer, trying to understand day-to-day culture in Hawaii by visiting a bit and reading what others have to say about it on the internet is futile. Just as if I tried to understand Japanese culture the same way. There are subtleties and so much baggage that are missing.
It's not a secret language, you hear it all the time. For example, a couple got off the same flight to the mainland as me, and I saw them at the car rental counter. The agent asked how many drivers and the guy turns to his wife sitting further away and says loudly: "eh, like drive?"
I don't think people would be offended if you used it, more like cringing because you're using it wrong and out of context. Many languages have polite and informal forms, with special rules when to use each, and you can think of pidgin as the informal form and English as the polite form. In that sense, it is also a socio-economic indicator of sorts.
So it depends who is speaking to whom, and whether they are familiar to each other. Even locals will start out in regular English if they don't know each other and then quickly switch once they exchange key information (island, family, school, etc.).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger Beer
'Me no beer tonight'. 'you beer drink?' 'I go eye-shopping tomorrow'. Strikes me as somewhat similar...completely different...but same concept.
Now that might be considered offensive. What you describe is what I believe is called a trade language. It is the structure of one with the words of another, yet wrong in both. Hawaiian pidgin IS a language, one that many people speak regularly and correctly. There are of course variations as in any language, but it is not some random mish-mash of words that the talker doesn't know any better way of expressing.
I'm curious to know if most Pidgin-speakers can also easily speak English?
I ask because when I first got to USVI, I couldn't understand spoken Crucian, despite studying it on the internet before coming down. I quickly found that something like 95% of Crucian-speakers will switch to English once they perceive that someone doesn't know what they are talking about. So, I'm wondering if that's the case in Hawai'i.
Now that might be considered offensive. What you describe is what I believe is called a trade language. It is the structure of one with the words of another, yet wrong in both. Hawaiian pidgin IS a language, one that many people speak regularly and correctly. There are of course variations as in any language, but it is not some random mish-mash of words that the talker doesn't know any better way of expressing.
Sorry, I hope I didn't seem to imply I'd use Konglish in Hawaii....just stating that I can see how pidgen is chinese-influenced...and how English-speakers and Korean speakers often end up speaking in Konglish in Korea to convey meaning/intentions, etc. when neither Korean or English are working for the communicators.
This really has nothing to do with modern day Hawaii whatsoever...only connected the two in my mind, as I can see how pidgen got started, because I can see how necessary Konglish can be in Korea when neither knows the other language.
Apologize again for bringing this thread this far off topic as well!!
It depends on the pidgin speaker. Some of them can switch to standard mainland English and some can't. Usually the ones who are only pidgin speakers won't be the ones you'll run across in the vacation spots. We also have a lot of folks who speak something other than English as their primary language or are fluent in two or three languages. If you count being fluent in pidgin as a second language, then most of the folks who are born here or lived here for a long time are fluent in two languages.
As for pidgin, I doubt there are many similarities to Cajun or Creole, as they come from different sources, but the principle is the same. I came across a site on Singlish (Singapore English), and it's very similar to Hawaiian pidgin. The Chinese linguistic influence is huge.
Sidebar: Pidgin and creole are both linguistic terms, with specific meanings, and there are many examples of each in the world. What is called "pidgin" in Hawai'i is actually a creole today, and is known to linguists as HCE (Hawaii Creole English).
A pidgin language develops where people who naturally speak several different languages need to communicate, so they develop a simple, primitive common language, perhaps just common verbs and nouns. The early Hawaiian plantations brought together workers from many different countries and the pidgin developed as a way for them to talk about work assignments, buying and selling, etc. Due to its improvised nature it takes bits and pieces from different sources and mixes them together in a simple structure that is easy for newcomers to pick up. But it is a second language for everyone speaking it.
A creole is an evolution from pidgin in which the language becomes more sophisticated and complete, adding grammatic elements missing in the pidgin. The transition to a creole occurs when children grow up speaking it as their first language. So a Japanese man marries a Vietnamese woman and they use pidgin to bridge the language gap at home, and that's what their children grow up speaking, which they use to communicate with other similar speaking children, and it evolves into something more complex and sophisticated.
To most Americans, the best known creole is what is commonly referred to simply as Creole, the French-English creole spoken in Southern Louisiana by Cajuns (Arcadians), the descendents of a migration of French speaking people from eastern Canada in the late 1700s. In the early days the Cajuns spoke a half a dozen different dialects of French between themselves, and spoke a pidgin when dealing with English speaking people, which gradually evolved into the current Cajun Creole.
In Hawai'i, if you grow up speaking HCE at home, and English is a second language to you, then throwing down some "pidgin" with an old friend is completely understandable. It also functions as a jargon, or insider language, that native speakers can use to discuss matters they don't want known by a non-speaker. On the other hand, if you picked up a few phrases from watching Hawai'i Five Oh, you really should keep it to yourself. It won't win you any friends. Use of HCE by a non-native is often seen as being presumptuous and disrespectful.
And none of this should be confused with Hawiian (ʻŌlelo Hawaiʻi), which is a beautiful full Polynesian language dating back thousands of years, and one of the two official languages of the state. Learning at least a few of the traditional Hawaiian phrases of greeting and respect and appreciation will go a long way in establishing friendship and aloha with others.
Very interesting, OpenD -- thanks for the information!
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
