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Further i find both to be very knowledgeable in History, Local & Hawai'ian Culture. Shoot i believe even OpenD speaks Olelo Hawaii.
I appreciate the kudos, but in fact I am a very poor student of Olelo Hawai'i, the native language of the Hawaiian people. I study it regularly, but not a lot of it sticks. But I have enormous respect for it, and continue my studies, feeble though they may be.
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Originally Posted by Twin Fifties
What is is "important" is subjective to each person, but I seriously doubt if many newcomers (realized or potential) move there to "change" Hawaii.
Not overtly, no. Not intentionally, no. But simply by the very human pattern of clinging to old preferences and seeking out the familiar, like water wearing away stone, newcomers change the local culture. At some point the very qualities that first attracted people to the islands may disappear.
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Most, including myself, do so to take advantage of the benefits of living there (lifestyle, last-frontier, or whatever is important to them)
Yes, and when the lifestyle drastically changes, then what? When the last frontier becomes just another suburbia, then what? Life is change, and change is life, and nothing stays the same forever. But I think it's important to be sensitive to what is being changed simply due to unconscious behavior.
To me one of the clearest cautionary tales is what happened to Phoenix. At one time people with severe pollen allergies were sent to Phoenix to recuperate, to recover, to find some relief. But as the city grew newcomers wanted it to look more like the Eastern cities they had grown up in, so they began planting the trees and shrubs they missed, and over time Phoenix became just as bad for allergy sufferers as the places they had come from.
I appreciate the kudos, but in fact I am a very poor student of Olelo Hawai'i, the native language of the Hawaiian people. I study it regularly, but not a lot of it sticks. But I have enormous respect for it, and continue my studies, feeble though they may be.
Not overtly, no. Not intentionally, no. But simply by the very human pattern of clinging to old preferences and seeking out the familiar, like water wearing away stone, newcomers change the local culture. At some point the very qualities that first attracted people to the islands may disappear.
Yes, and when the lifestyle drastically changes, then what? When the last frontier becomes just another suburbia, then what? Life is change, and change is life, and nothing stays the same forever. But I think it's important to be sensitive to what is being changed simply due to unconscious behavior.
To me one of the clearest cautionary tales is what happened to Phoenix. At one time people with severe pollen allergies were sent to Phoenix to recuperate, to recover, to find some relief. But as the city grew newcomers wanted it to look more like the Eastern cities they had grown up in, so they began planting the trees and shrubs they missed, and over time Phoenix became just as bad for allergy sufferers as the places they had come from.
Your issue is with time and the advancing tide of humanity.
Culture is a continuum, not a snapshot.
The Hawaiian culture has changed and evolved from the time the Polynesians first landed near South Point, through the unification under Kam, and with the influence of Westernization, and will continue to evolve forever. Like the subduction, remelting and eventual re-emergence from a volcano of the earth's crust, all evolves, all changes.
You are lamenting time, its passage, and the effects of people being people.
You are brand new here, and preaching to people who have been here long before you.
Not the wisest course of action.
May I suggest a wiser attitude to adopt, courtesy of Steven Covey...
Seek first to understand, then to be understood.
The principles of life, culture and cultural evolution proceeded, by many a century, this forum, and will exist long after. I don't hold that long term membership grants wisdom in that area. Knowledge of facts, perhaps, but not wisdom.
Sometimes, it is impossible to see the forest from inside the forest. Too many trees block your view. An "outside" perspective is often the sharpest.
The issues of cultural dilution and evolution are in no way unique to Hawaii - they are Universal save for a few Tribes along the Amazon, and perhaps elsewhere.
No worries. I'm used to people bumbling around here with their eyes half closed.
If you care to study the ancient Hawaiian systems of wisdom, there are some remarkable resources available here.
There's a local resident here I was introduced to at the Sunday morning farmers market years ago when I first arrived, but honestly, I didn't "get" who he was at first. Then an old friend in Washington State sent me a book she had found at a thrift store on Whidbey Island, near where I once lived, and she said she felt it somehow belonged to me. So she bought it, and mailed it to me. It was the first of many of Serge Kahuli King's books I've read, even studied deeply, as I've become better acquainted with one of the foremost authorities in the world on Huna, the traditional Hawaiian spiritual and philosophical system.
In terms of other schools of thought and spiritual practice, there is an abundance of choice, due to the history of great diversity in the labor force that was imported from other parts of the world to work in Hawaiian plantations. The Hongwanji Buddhist Temple in Kea'au represents a more than 900 year old tradition which has played an important place in the spiritual life of Big Island residents since the 1800s. Climb up the hill above the black sands of Na'alehu beach and you can visit the site of the very first Christian Mission, and cemetery in Hawai'i. Catholics and Mormons have long held sway here, and Shintos, and fairly recently even Jewish Temples and Wiccans. And even more, obviously. This is one of the most diverse cultures in the US.
But in terms of Huna, the traditional Hawaiian ways, you can't get any closer to the epicenter than here. The area around Volcano used to be kapu... forbidden ... to all except the Kahuna... the priests... and the offerings of flowers and vodka placed near the edge of the Kilauea crater today as offerings to the goddess Pele are freshened daily, by the devout, who are the only members of the public allowed in that area, due to the extreme danger. It's not just exotic copy to titillate tourists, it's completely real to many who live here.
My point is... the culture in Hawai'i is richer and deeper than casual examination might indicate. It takes quite a bit of study to really begin to understand it. And I think what HbyH was trying to say is simply that a lot of recent transplants don't really bother to try to understand.
Your issue is with time and the advancing tide of humanity.
Culture is a continuum, not a snapshot.
The Hawaiian culture has changed and evolved from the time the Polynesians first landed near South Point, through the unification under Kam, and with the influence of Westernization, and will continue to evolve forever. Like the subduction, remelting and eventual re-emergence from a volcano of the earth's crust, all evolves, all changes.
You are lamenting time, its passage, and the effects of people being people.
Not the wisest course of action.
I believe im just going to give an example and leave it at that. Back in the olden days our country outlawed Both Hawaiian and Native American languages and religion. Thou we cant go back and fix the damage. Those actions still effect us today. Just 40 years ago only like 14 young adults knew the Olelo Hawaii language, it almost disappeared. Some native american tribes have lost there languages and spirituality.
My point is if we weren't intolerant and left the Hawaiian etc culture alone
, where would it be? Its not moderation that makes our languages or culture not popular etc.
It is not an issue of going back to living in grass huts or tee pees. Its living with Aloha Aina, Aloha spirit.,
I believe im just going to give an example and leave it at that. Back in the olden days our country outlawed Both Hawaiian and Native American languages and religion. Thou we cant go back and fix the damage. Those actions still effect us today. Just 40 years ago only like 14 young adults knew the Olelo Hawaii language, it almost disappeared. Some native american tribes have lost there languages and spirituality.
My point is if we weren't intolerant and left the Hawaiian etc culture alone
, where would it be? Its not moderation that makes our languages or culture not popular etc.
It is not an issue of going back to living in grass huts or tee pees. Its living with Aloha Aina, Aloha spirit.,
Who is affected, and how, by the demise of the Hawaiian language and religion. Not one person in a 1,000,000, I suspect, even knows about them, much less cares about them. I think you overstate the case tremendously.
Last edited by Twin Fifties; 03-21-2014 at 10:19 PM..
The Hawaiian language is of academic import only - period. It will play no role whatsoever in the future, whether or not it was outlawed. It "died" because it was unimportant. If academia wants to preserve it, that is fine. If people want to use snippets of it here and there, that is great too, but don't think that the world will miss it. The world had no use for it, so it died on the vine after going only as far as it could go under its own steam.
While those sorts of things may be of importance to you, overall, big picture, they are trifles and no more.
Do you live in Hawaii? I'm asking because in the Hawaii where I live people DO speak Hawaiian. It is ingrained in the everyday life and perpetuated in the hula that is danced by thousands. It may be hard to find someone speaking Hawaiian in downtown Waikiki, but where I live we use Hawaiian words every day.
Words I hear and use frequently: Aloha, Mahalo, pau, pau hana, ohana, lei, lei po'o, honu, tutu, kane, wahine, aloha kakahiaka, hau'oli, hau'oli la hanau, makai, mauka.
I may not be fluent, but others here are. And I disagree that the world will miss Hawaiian if people stop using it. It is as much a part of the island culture as the flora and fauna.
Now you can get nasty with me like you did with OpenD and Hawaiian by Heart.
Do you live in Hawaii? I'm asking because in the Hawaii where I live people DO speak Hawaiian. It is ingrained in the everyday life and perpetuated in the hula that is danced by thousands. It may be hard to find someone speaking Hawaiian in downtown Waikiki, but where I live we use Hawaiian words every day.
Words I hear and use frequently: Aloha, Mahalo, pau, pau hana, ohana, lei, lei po'o, honu, tutu, kane, wahine, aloha kakahiaka, hau'oli, hau'oli la hanau, makai, mauka.
I may not be fluent, but others here are. And I disagree that the world will miss Hawaiian if people stop using it. It is as much a part of the island culture as the flora and fauna.
Now you can get nasty with me like you did with OpenD and Hawaiian by Heart.
I never heard much of it, beyond the types of words you mentioned. It is a sprinkling, a smattering of words interspersed in mostly English. It is not the foundation of communication. Like salt and pepper, not the staple. Highlights only.
Instead of Happy Hour, it was Pau Hana, instead of snacks it was Pu pu's (can't remember exact spelling). Mahalo instead of Danke.
I have nothing against using it, but I don't believe it will ever be a basis of communication again.
My point is that people have a romanticized view of a culture and language that has run its course, and are eternally blaming other cultures for it. People should look forward to the future, not cling to the past.
There is an ocean difference between speaking Hawaiian, and using Hawaiian words every day. For example, I used danke earlier. German for Thanks. That doesn't mean I speak German even though I used a German or French world here and there.
HbH inferred that people should go to Florida or California and stay out of Hawaii, ostensibly, I gather, because they don't steep themselves in the Hawaiian culture of Yesteryear, and that such reverence was apparently the only legitimate reason for wanting to move or live there.
Hawaii is a state, and all Americans have a right of free movement amongst the states. Attempts to intimidate people from moving to Hawaii because they don't share the same reverence for a bygone era is not "American".
Sure, the history of Hawaii is interesting to a degree. Geologic history, human and cultural history, but not as much as the history of Saxony, for example. For some, it may be uber alles, but I don't see near-reverence for it being a de-facto standard of purity for moving there. Do as you please, but don't expect that others will share that reverence, or allow themselves to be limited or judged on that basis.
Last edited by Twin Fifties; 03-21-2014 at 11:37 PM..
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