Home PV solar systems are a consumer ripoff! (houses, refrigerator)

[terracore]

Grid tie has always been a gamble, and why I've never gone solar. There are some communities where their grid tie fees are nearly what they paid for electricity before they took out 2nd mortgages to finance the solar. I remember when they used to give tax rebates when people bought hybrid vehicles, now the opposite is happening with many locations charging hybrids and other electrics higher registration fees to make up for the missing gas taxes. I feel horrible for all the people being affected in this manner. Because of my grid-tie paranoia we decided to invest in conservation instead. We got a solar hot water system, energy efficient appliances, switched to LED lighting and use appliance timers to shut things like internet routers and other phantom energy wasters. We took advantage of all the Hawaii energy rebates available at Hawaii Energy - Rebates to fund our purchases. (for example, our ceiling fan and appliance timer was free, we got rebates on our clothes washer, refrigerator, LED lights, etc). In the end we paid only about 2k out-of-pocket for major energy conservation and our electricity bill last month was only $101. We expect this month's bill to be under a hundred dollars. I am 100% for solar but I will never go grid-tie, and our conservation methods are cheaper in the long run anyway, at least until the price of solar drops a little bit more and new battery technologies come online in the next few years. Eventually we'll ditch the utility but the time is not here yet.

[whtviper1]

Solar still makes a lot sense for me - I pay the minimum connection fee but run Central Air, have a heated pool, a lighted outdoor entertainment area, and don't worry about turning things off. Depending on weather, I suspect I save $500-$800/month.

I agree it probably doesn't make sense for a bill under $250/month unless you get a great deal or feel you must live "green"

[terracore]

Definitely a good deal for you... plus there is no practical battery option for you. Grid tie is necessary if you have large consumption.

We did have a solar guy talk to us and your figure is about right. $300 or more a months is where solar starts saving money. $250 is probably close enough too (especially if you plan on staying in your house a long time). When he found out our bill told us- solar not right for us at this time.

[KauaiHiker]

Thx for the links, whtviper1, I had done some research before signing up, but didn't find that one, or maybe skimmed it too fast. The infuriating thing is that this drop seems to be directly related to the drop in OIL prices, not the rise of local renewables (KIUC has one solar farm online, another one almost finished, and there are several local mini-farms, not to mention hotels with solar carports running their own HVAC). With the lower oil prices, the overall rate has dropped to 34 cents/KWh, so solar buy back is one third the cost of a KWh (whereas it used to be half).

Of course, it's still advantageous to install solar, the cost per KWh that you can use when the sun is shining straight from your own panes is still around 10c. But it does throw off the planning for covering our night-time usage with daytime excess production (not being able to zero out our bill anymore). So actual payback time for the solar investment may be a few extra years--and who knows where the rates will be over that time. Not game changing, but the uncertainty is not very welcome.

I guess the biggest issue is lack of transparency. I sort of assumed the schedule Q rates would be updated every year and customers given notice. Instead, they can change monthly, with only a website to let you know. Further, they don't tell us how that figure is calculated, so it's not possible to do any planning. So right now, I'm trying to figure out what how the rate is determined, to get that published publicly. You'd think the PUC (PUBLIC utilities commission) would be either in charge of setting the rates, or at least knowledgeable about when and why they change, but they been no help so far.

[whtviper1]

Originally Posted by KauaiHiker

I guess the biggest issue is lack of transparency. I sort of assumed the schedule Q rates would be updated every year and customers given notice. Instead, they can change monthly, with only a website to let you know. Further, they don't tell us how that figure is calculated, so it's not possible to do any planning. So right now, I'm trying to figure out what how the rate is determined, to get that published publicly. You'd think the PUC (PUBLIC utilities commission) would be either in charge of setting the rates, or at least knowledgeable about when and why they change, but they been no help so far.

The above rate for energy delivered to the Company by the Customer is based on an avoided fuel cost of 10.254 ¢/kWhr on-peak and 10.030 ¢/kWhr off-peak, an avoided O&M cost of 0.040 ¢/kWhr on-peak and 0.035 ¢/kWhr off-peak, and a Power Factor Adjustment of -0.120 ¢/kWhr on-peak and -0.280 ¢/kWhr off-peak. The sum of the on-peak costs are time weighted 14 hours of 24 hours for on-peak and 10 hours of 24 hours for off-peak and summed to derive the Schedule Q energy rate. The Schedule Q energy rate will be revised monthly for changes in avoided fuel cost and annually for changes in all cost elements.

This adjustment provision is consistent with the terms of

Decision and Order No. 24086 in Docket No. 7310, and may be revised

to reflect further changes, subject to Commission approval.

http://www.hawaiianelectric.com/vcmc...ORatesSchQ.pdf

[KauaiHiker]

I did find that document (KIUC has a similar one), but I'm still trying to understand it. They're saying there are 3 different components to the rate (2 positive, one negative), and there are time-of-use rates, but they are average in. Obviously, this is aimed at the PUC or other industry insiders, and is not meant to explain things to the actual consumer. That's one of the problems of rooftop solar, we're stepping into a big industry as outsiders who don't really know how things work--and it's not in the players' interest to explain it to us.

[kauailover]

I guess it would make sense to only install a solar system sized to fit your own needs during the daytime hours and not install such a large system thinking you'll get a decent return from KIUC. But of course the KWH rates will rise, fuel prices will rise and perhaps their schedule Q rate will go up too?

[J.vick]

Originally Posted by kauailover

I guess it would make sense to only install a solar system sized to fit your own needs during the daytime hours and not install such a large system thinking you'll get a decent return from KIUC. But of course the KWH rates will rise, fuel prices will rise and perhaps their schedule Q rate will go up too?

I was thinking about that too just enough to supply me during the day which is when I'll be using more energy.
I have a 3 kW system here in California and it keeps my monthly cost reasonable since it gets 100 degrees plus in the summer!

[whtviper1]

Originally Posted by kauailover

I guess it would make sense to only install a solar system sized to fit your own needs during the daytime hours and not install such a large system thinking you'll get a decent return from KIUC. But of course the KWH rates will rise, fuel prices will rise and perhaps their schedule Q rate will go up too?

Schedule Q may rise - but don't count on it - as more solar homes are added to the grid, it puts pressure on Schedule Q.

The US is on track to be a major oil exporter due to solar and hybrid cars - most don't realize the US is the largest oil producer.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...ertaking-saudi

Overbuilding solar can make sense as most people use the most power at night and early morning - as most people work and aren't home. Overbuilding is cheap once you factor the initial start up costs.

[rpseguin]

Originally Posted by whtviper1

Schedule Q may rise - but don't count on it - as more solar homes are added to the grid, it puts pressure on Schedule Q.

The US is on track to be a major oil exporter due to solar and hybrid cars - most don't realize the US is the largest oil producer.

U.S. Seen as Biggest Oil Producer After Overtaking Saudi - Bloomberg Business

Overbuilding solar can make sense as most people use the most power at night and early morning - as most people work and aren't home. Overbuilding is cheap once you factor the initial start up costs.

Most people use power in their homes in the early morning and at night, but depending upon location, peak grid loads are often during the day (industry, businesses, air conditioning, ...).
It would be interesting to look at the data for each of the Hawaiian islands.


If we do end up moving to Hawaii, we would eventually want to install a solar system, presumably grid-tied.

Anybody have some rough ballpark costs for a 2KW PV system installation? And what are the rebates? Ie, what is the cost of the system after rebates?
3KW system?


I have been advocating for quite a while that I think our country should be making a national investment in renewable energy and in energy storage systems. I think that we should commit to spending at least $100 billion per year for at least the next 10 years on renewable energy, in terms of solar production and installation, research and development, infrastructure and technology, battery technology, ...
This would IMMEDIATELY create many tens of thousands of good paying, long term jobs (production, R&D, installers, maintenance, ...). These jobs would be local. The boost in available electrical energy would reduce the price of electricity AND lower the costs of fossil fuels (demand for fossil fuels will fall).
This would also help lower our dependence on foreign fossil fuels and the associated vulnerability to oil price spikes and turmoil in other countries.

I also would like to see us have a big change in the way we build buildings to take advantage of passive solar and utilize the lessons of the past, pre HVAC, as many houses were smartly built to take advantage of the Sun.