Info about rebuilding “grandfathered” homes (non permitted) (rental, insurance)

[Dakine_builder]

Aloha

Looking for some info/advice on “grandfathered” houses (built before permits were required which I believe was 1965). I’m thinking of restoring/rebuilding a small grandfathered house- 1b/1b 520sf. The reason I’m exploring this option is because the house has existing cesspool, water, plumbing, electrical (wiring). Walls are decent. Just needs new roof, floors, a few new foundation posts/piers, and new (updated) electrical panel. I can do most the work myself with help from friends/family. It’s small enough to where it’s not too much of an investment to rebuild vs a new permitted building which would need everything including plans, permits, septic, water tank (we’re too high up to connect to county water) etc. The house once had electric but after subdividing it was removed and never reconnected. There is electrical poles nearby on the road. No other permitted/structures on property. It is AG5. I plan to build a new permitted house in the future but Im looking at this house as a potential rental or guest house but I’m worried I’ll put the time and $ only for it to become a liability?

My concerns/questions:

-As long as I rebuild to original size/dimensions and cost doesn’t exceed half the value of the building I don’t need a permit, correct?
-To clarify, if no permit is required I don’t technically need to rebuild to code, correct? I will build it better but I can for example put in a different roof style that doesn’t require trusses? Or do I need to rebuild with truss since it had trussed roof?
-Will helco connect power to it?
-How does it affect home insurance and how does a bank see it (is it going to be a liabity more than an asset and how does a bank look at it; financing if we sell property down the line)

Any other input or info is appreciated, Mahalo!

[hotzcatz]

I don't think it's old enough to be grandfathered. Last time I looked at the numbers, I think it was "built prior to 1915 with documentation prior to 1930". At least, I think those may be more accurate numbers for 'grandfathered' houses. I've only met about two houses which met the 'grandfathered' requirements in all my dealing with houses in Hawaii for the past forty years or so. Generally I just draw the blueprints for new structures, but sometimes there will be additions and such and then which parts are permitted matters.

I no longer do 'as built' drawings to get a permit for a structure that doesn't have one since the new code is so far from what everyone has been building that bringing an existing non-permitted structure up to current code is too much of a PITA anymore.

If you meet those requirements of date and documentation, I think you can rebuild up to 25% of it's value in one year without bringing it up to code. If you do up to 50% of the value in repairs, then I think it needs to come up to the '81 code or some such. In 1980, we were using the Uniform Building Code. Over 50% and then I think you get to bring it up to current code. Currently, for houses, we're using the International Residential Code of 2006. The exact requirements to be a 'grandfathered' structure are somewhere in the Hawaii Revised Statues and I haven't read that portion for about eight years so all this could be pretty fuzzy.

You can not do the electrical or plumbing yourself. That must be done by a Hawaii licensed electrician or plumber. Most of them will not sign off on other people's work, so frequently the whole system is redone.

Helco will no longer connect power to structured that do not have a permit. Used to be you could connect with a temporary power pole and not worry about a permit. Then you had to have a permit before they would bring you the temporary power but they never checked if you ever built anything. Now you only get temp power for a set amount of time and then it gets shut off. But things change, call Helco and ask them.

If there's some way you can pull 20 square feet off that structure, then you'd probably be able to file for a 'change in use' and get it designated as a 'guest' house at some point in the future. Providing you can get it permitted in the first place. If it can't be made into a guest house, then it may be the designated 'dwelling unit' for the property which means it would have to either be removed or made into something other than a dwelling before you could build another house on it. Or, since you're ag, if you could prove the need for more worker housing, then you'd be able to build another dwelling.

As far as banks and insurance companies are concerned, structures don't exist until they have a building permit.

It used to be that these sorts of houses were ignored until someone complained about them, then the owner would have to go get a permit or tear them down. Then someone in the County noticed you could find structures from satellite pictures and they had started to go find them and tell people to get permits or pay fines. But then we had the big lava flow and everyone kinda got distracted. Not sure what the attitude is towards non-permitted structures these days. However, as long as it has no permit, things could change at any time and then the house would have no protection against being brought up to code or torn down.

If this isn't a property you've bought yet, it may be worthwhile to ask the Planning Department what is and is not permitted on the property and if it is officially grandfathered in.

Oh, and then awhile back, I think they were using the term 'grandfathered' to mean that if you went and got a permit for it, they'd not charge you the permit fee. It didn't mean you didn't have to get the permit, it just meant they wouldn't charge the couple hundred dollar fee to get the permit. And you couldn't get the permit until it was brought up to code. Which I thought was kinda a sneaky way to get folks started on getting a permit. If they weren't paying attention to the nuances, they'd think older 'grandfathered' structures could be permitted just as they were and not brought up to code.

There's also been talk about making all existing cesspools changed over to septic by a certain date, not sure if they're gonna go through with that thought or not. Since I'm not seeing a whole lot of fuss and bother about it, I guess that idea was shelved for awhile.

[Mikala43]

Closed at OP's request.