In Favor of TMT (tax, legally, safe)

[TwoByFour]

Originally Posted by whtviper1

I always have a hard time with this argument -

It isn't much different that the people in California, Arizona, Nevada, and Utah were screwed 170 years ago.

Or, Texas 175 years ago.

Just let the Native Hawaiians have a casino - and things will be fine.

I don't see Hawaii as analogous to native Americans. It was a modern sovereign nation with laws and a constitution, and diplomatic relationships with other nations. And it was the entire nation that was stolen so if someone would try to carve out a reservation it would be the entire state. And finally it was not strictly an issue of just native Hawaiians as there were many other people who were citizens of the Kingdom. It was the entire nation of Hawaii that got screwed over, not just native Hawaiians.

In this sense Mauna Kea is not just a native Hawaiian issue, it is a Hawaiian issue. And the harm done and the remedy for that harm is not really something the state owes to native Hawaiians, it is what the US government owes the state of Hawaii.

If a vote were to be held on Mauna, it would really be a plebiscite on whether the State of Hawaii is based on the Hawaiian culture. In many ways it is but that would be a legal mess and I am sure would end up in the Supreme Court of the US.

[whtviper1]

Originally Posted by TwoByFour

I don't see Hawaii as analogous to native Americans. It was a modern sovereign nation with laws and a constitution, and diplomatic relationships with other nations. And it was the entire nation that was stolen so if someone would try to carve out a reservation it would be the entire state. And finally it was not strictly an issue of just native Hawaiians as there were many other people who were citizens of the Kingdom. It was the entire nation of Hawaii that got screwed over, not just native Hawaiians.

In this sense Mauna Kea is not just a native Hawaiian issue, it is a Hawaiian issue. And the harm done and the remedy for that harm is not really something the state owes to native Hawaiians, it is what the US government owes the state of Hawaii.

If a vote were to be held on Mauna, it would really be a plebiscite on whether the State of Hawaii is based on the Hawaiian culture.

If there was a vote, it would be overwhelmingly in favor of TMT - there hasn't been a single poll that I've seen that says otherwise.

Anyway, I wasn't speaking about Native Americans. When we took California, Nevada, Utah, Arizona, and Texas - they were part of Mexico.

[Open-D]

Originally Posted by whtviper1

If there was a vote, it would be overwhelmingly in favor of TMT - there hasn't been a single poll that I've seen that says otherwise.

Anyway, I wasn't speaking about Native Americans. When we took California, Nevada, Utah, Arizona, and Texas - they were part of Mexico.

When we LIBERATED California, Nevada, Utah, Arizona, and Texas - they were part of Mexico.

That's better!!!

[TwoByFour]

Originally Posted by whtviper1

If there was a vote, it would be overwhelmingly in favor of TMT - there hasn't been a single poll that I've seen that says otherwise.

That's interesting. I don't watch TV so had no idea what the polls say. I thought it was more of a toss up based on the size of the rallies. If they don't have the numbers I wonder what the end game is?

[Arktikos]

Recently drove through and the spectacle of cars and protestors has grown
Quite a bit since earlier this summer. Whoever has been selling
those Hawaiian flags has made some serious bank.
I think the flags flapping from poles erected on vehicles is ridiculous,
and suspect the end game will see them rousted out of there by
National Guard.

[iuki001]

Originally Posted by whtviper1

300 jobs for construction - 140 thereafter

$1,000,000 in rent per year - 80% towards stewardship of mountain 20% to Hawaiian Home Lands

$26 million in operations when operational.

For the Big Island - big numbers.

I just read the Hawaii Trubune-Herald today that reported how much research funding would be lost if the TMT is not built.

If you haven’t read it, it’s available online. Your info is so informative.

[terracore]

Polynesians studied the stars and astronomy and used this science to navigate to Hawaii and settle it.

If protesters stopped them from studying the stars, this thread might not exist.

[whtviper1]

Originally Posted by terracore

Polynesians studied the stars and astronomy and used this science to navigate to Hawaii and settle it.

If protesters stopped them from studying the stars, this thread might not exist.

I agree - it makes no sense that descendants of a group of people who relied on exploration and the stars are protesting that.

Ultimately, I don't think any of the protesters (or mostly) really care if the telescope is built or not - they want something - and they better get it soon before the weather gets cold.

[Slush]

Worshipping a volcano or building a telescope for scientific advancement for all mankind. Really if this is a hard choice then it cannot be discussed rationally.

[Open-D]

Originally Posted by Slush

Worshipping a volcano or building a telescope for scientific advancement for all mankind. Really if this is a hard choice then it cannot be discussed rationally.

Brilliantly put.