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The only places that could have done that were San Antonio and earlier in the thread former Buffalo area resident that now lives in that area stated that there would likely be issues with getting a new stadium or even enhancements of the Alamo Dome; St. Louis which has an owner that left to go back to Los Angeles(breaking or still paying for a current lease) and lost 2 teams, while also not having the potential pull that the team currently has. Besides that, you are likely looking at a similar situation to what happened in the local area and people having issues with it. So, there would need to be a perfect storm of events for the team to really even consider it.
As I said before, this is a moot point, as the Bills will remain in Buffalo for a long time.
Notice the MBE at 19:00 Minority Business Enterprise
22:00 WBE Women Business Enterprise
They lost local work because there weren't enough qualified WBE to do certain tasks so they had to go outside the area to satisfy the 15/15 rules
The guy at the right asked the best questions
^That is where the educational(inc. vocational/skilled trades) piece, which gets mentioned many times on the We The Parents of WNY radio show mentions and this workforce center on the East Side comes into play: https://northlandwtc.org/
I'm curious as to where they go to fulfill the MWBE requirement as well.
^That is where the educational(inc. vocational/skilled trades) piece, which gets mentioned many times on the We The Parents of WNY radio show mentions and this workforce center on the East Side comes into play: https://northlandwtc.org/
I'm curious as to where they go to fulfill the MWBE requirement as well.
That's the cost of doing business in NYS. Now you can see why the Pegulas asked for financial support for the new stadium. Instead of getting it built as reasonable as posible, you have the added costs of the PLA and minority representation. Nothing gets done without the State/County/Town kicking in money.
That's the cost of doing business in NYS. Now you can see why the Pegulas asked for financial support for the new stadium. Instead of getting it built as reasonable as posible, you have the added costs of the PLA and minority representation. Nothing gets done without the State/County/Town kicking in money.
Thanks for bringing that up CK. This article goes into great detail about the differences between both projects:
Buffalo News:
"The new Buffalo Bills stadium will be one of the biggest taxpayer-backed ventures ever undertaken in the Buffalo Niagara region.
But did taxpayers, who are on the hook for $850 million in funding for the estimated $1.54 billion project, get a good deal? To find out, it's natural to compare the Bills deal to the $1.26 billion in public money going toward a $2.1 billion new Tennessee Titans stadium, an agreement also closing in on final approval.
There are some distinguishable similarities and differences in the two projects:
• The Bills stadium deal includes higher mandated wages for construction workers than the Titans deal.
• It sets more established goals for diverse businesses to be involved in the project and negotiated a community benefits agreement that will pump more money from the team into community-based groups and initiatives.
• But the larger public investment in the Titans stadium should result in more spinoff development in the Nashville area, because it's an enclosed facility, as well as, simply, that city's stronger growth.
• The Titans stadium deal also makes the team responsible for future facility upkeep and upgrades. At the new stadium in Orchard Park, that $280 million cost over 30 years will fall on state government in the Bills agreement.
• And in some key areas, the agreements are similar. Both deals make the team responsible for cost overruns – an important tenet underscored by the cost of the Bills stadium rising by $140 million since the agreement was reached.
Taxpayers are footing the bill for about 60% of the cost of both projects. But the $1.26 billion in public money earmarked for the Titans project is almost 50% more than the funding dedicated by the state and county to the Bills new stadium. That includes Nashville’s commitment of $760 million to stadium construction far outdoing Erie County’s contribution of $250 million.
Erie County Executive Mark C. Poloncarz said he feels good about the agreement.
“If you look at the two deals that basically have been announced in the same time period, ours is far superior in the investment back into our community,” Poloncarz said. “It’s a stronger deal in the end.”
Some, Poloncarz noted, have questioned the public dollars committed to the project.
"The county's contribution to the stadium is fairly small for a local government," Poloncarz said, "and in return we're going to get a substantial commitment from the Bills.”
But before coming to any final conclusions, it is important that the structure of the deals, funding sources and the differences between the two cities and the stadiums planned be considered, said Marc Ganis, an expert in sports and stadium finance who is the president of international film platform Jiaflix.
After all, Nashville and Buffalo are very different markets, with Nashville having the advantage of warmer weather, faster economic growth and the year-round tourist draw of country music and a bustling downtown.
“Nashville will have a domed stadium expected to be used to get a lot of other big events in a moderate climate market that is one of the fastest growing and dynamic communities in the country,” Ganis said. “In Buffalo, this is strictly a football stadium.”
But in the Bills deal, Ganis pointed out how important it was that Erie County officials were able to get more money to come from Albany for the stadium. The county's funding portion for stadium construction only accounts for 16% of the total project cost.
“In many ways, it was more important to get this done in Buffalo than, perhaps, even Nashville,” Ganis said. “The Titans weren’t going anywhere because it is such a growing market, but in Buffalo, frankly, there was a chance the team would go somewhere else if this deal didn’t get done. It did get done and that came from a lot of money from the state, rather than from the local community. That’s a big win for Erie County.”
Here's how the deals compare in certain key areas:
Construction labor
While the Bills’ stadium agreement comes with a more robust project labor agreement governing rules for construction and emphasizing specific goals for minority- and women-owned businesses, the Titans have said they are also prioritizing diverse and small businesses and promoting other initiatives focused on economic growth and professional training.
The deal in Tennessee will require "fair wages" for stadium construction workers as well, but the $18 an hour minimum wage mandated in that agreement will be markedly less.
The use of prevailing wages in Orchard Park will likely result in the workers on the $1.54 billion Bills stadium project being paid a higher minimum wage than those working on the Titans stadium.
According to New York State labor law, contractors and subcontractors must pay the prevailing wage in the locality where the work is being done, as well as fringe benefits to all workers. For example, the prevailing wage for a carpenter in Erie County is roughly $32 an hour, with benefit costs equal to another $12 to $15 an hour, according to state Labor Department data.
Separate Labor Department data pegs the market rate for carpenters locally at a median of almost $24 an hour. An Empire Center study in 2017 concluded that prevailing wage rates, including benefits, in the Buffalo Niagara region were 84% higher than the local market rates.
Bills new stadium a private project that will play under many state, county rules
About 400 companies are expected to be involved in working on hundreds of assorted bid packages that are part of the new stadium construction and demolition of the current one.
A construction development agreement with the Bills promises most of the work stays local and sets specific goals for the hiring process. There is an overall participation goal of 30% for Minority Women Business Enterprises – 15% each – and a 6% goal for Service-Disabled Veteran-Owned Businesses.
But critics of the Bills agreement say that the project labor agreement boxed out most nonunion firms employing construction workers in the Buffalo-area.
Ken Girardin, a fellow for the Empire Center for Public Policy, said only certain people in the community – especially those in organized labor – will benefit from the Bills labor agreement. Although the project labor agreement does not exclude nonunion contractors from bidding on work, it makes it challenging for them to use their entire crews, due to union labor requirements in the agreement.
“No one could look at the labor deals around the stadium deal and say that this was a smart business move or even a good move economically around the region,” Girardin said. “For taxpayers, it’s a bigger loser than the Bills in the Super Bowl.”
The Titans say the team is also prioritizing local businesses, goods and labor in construction and vendor contracts. Its construction agreement includes a workforce development program aimed at maximizing minority inclusion and opportunities in stadium construction and beyond. There also will be a $2 million fund established for loans and grants for qualified small and diverse businesses who need access to capital.
"Ultimately, increasing opportunities for workforce and small business development, nurturing and enhancing our neighborhoods in need, and supporting education at all levels was what the community believed would be most impactful,” said Adolpho Birch, senior vice president and chief legal officer for the Titans.
Community benefits
The community benefits agreement reached in the Bills deal will put $100 million into community-based ventures, versus $47 million for the Titans over the 30-year leases.
What's in Bills' community benefits agreement? Public transit, diverse hiring, civic events and more
The agreement outlines the Bills' commitment to supporting direct, local participation in the stadium project and to providing money for everything from recycling and youth programs to mental health and hunger issues.
Poloncarz has pinpointed the strength of the community benefits agreement as one of the most critical parts of the deal with the team. The Bills will disperse $3 million a year, though that amount could rise by as much as 2.2% a year, depending on the consumer price index, over 30 years.
As part of the Titans deal, the team would create the Nashville Needs Impact Fund and contribute $1 million to it in the first year of the lease and that contribution would increase by 3% each year over 30 years.
Like Buffalo, the Titans will organize a committee of local stakeholders responsible to review the Titans' progress with dispersing funds for community programming, make suggestions on where the dollars should go and publish an annual report for key stakeholders.
“We're going to have (more) that's going to be coming back into this community through the Bills during the life of the lease,” Poloncarz said. “That can be focused in many different areas.”
Cost overruns
Here the agreements are similar.
The Bills will pick up the rest of the tab and any cost overruns. The Titans are also responsible for project cost overruns.
Stadium maintenance
There is a $280 million difference between the two deals.
Deal allows for 6% surcharge on all purchases at new Bills stadium
The potential surcharge would shift the local cost of ongoing maintenance and improvements at the stadium from Erie County taxpayers to the fans who go to the games, County Executive Mark Poloncarz said.
Much of the Bills' maintenance costs will be paid by taxpayers. The state will pay $6 million per year for 30 years into a capital improvement fund for the stadium, and $6.67 million per year for 15 years into a maintenance and repair fund – or $280 million over the length of the lease.
The county will make payments into those funds based on revenue generated by surcharges on new stadium ticketing, parking and concessions.
In the Titans deal, stadium maintenance becomes the responsibility of the team.
As part of the Titans deal, the team also agreed to waive $32 million owed by Nashville for the money spent by the team maintaining the current stadium over the past four years, and $30 million additionally owed in bonds. And the Titans paying for future maintenance at the new stadium, shifts the future tax burden to the franchise, according to the team.
Spinoff potential
The Titans stadium is a larger project with more trickle-down potential than a new Bills stadium in an area of Orchard Park that has seen little spinoff development during the 50 years that Highmark Stadium has been there.
Public funding for Tennessee Titans stadium eclipses money for Bills
The Tennessee Titans are closing in on an agreement for a new stadium and the City of Nashville and Tennessee could be pumping in up to $1.26 billion in public money for what will reportedly be between a $2.1 billion and $2.2 billion project.
The public investment in the Titans project could yield more for Nashville and the surrounding area, with a domed downtown stadium potentially bringing larger events like the Super Bowl and Final Four to the area. That’s something that won’t happen at the Bills’ new open-air stadium.
The agreement could also serve as the launching pad for future development in Nashville, transforming land currently used as surface parking lots into a large park, greenways, affordable housing, a multimodal boulevard, local businesses and a transit hub.
The Bills deal also provides for a transit hub, but there are no plans at this point for helping the area nearby to the stadium see the kind of trickle-down development that hasn't occurred over the past five decades in Orchard Park.
"We came out … with a more fiscally responsible deal for taxpayers and a future world-class city asset,” Nashville Mayor John Cooper said. “This is a win for Nashville.”"
^“No one could look at the labor deals around the stadium deal and say that this was a smart business move or even a good move economically around the region,” Girardin said. “For taxpayers, it’s a bigger loser than the Bills in the Super Bowl.”
Wow, labor costs twice as much in Buffalo- unions.
Interesting they didn't announce the PSL cost until after the cost overrun was announce.
Thanks for bringing that up CK. This article goes into great detail about the differences between both projects:
Buffalo News:
"The new Buffalo Bills stadium will be one of the biggest taxpayer-backed ventures ever undertaken in the Buffalo Niagara region.
But did taxpayers, who are on the hook for $850 million in funding for the estimated $1.54 billion project, get a good deal? To find out, it's natural to compare the Bills deal to the $1.26 billion in public money going toward a $2.1 billion new Tennessee Titans stadium, an agreement also closing in on final approval.
There are some distinguishable similarities and differences in the two projects:
• The Bills stadium deal includes higher mandated wages for construction workers than the Titans deal.
• It sets more established goals for diverse businesses to be involved in the project and negotiated a community benefits agreement that will pump more money from the team into community-based groups and initiatives.
• But the larger public investment in the Titans stadium should result in more spinoff development in the Nashville area, because it's an enclosed facility, as well as, simply, that city's stronger growth.
• The Titans stadium deal also makes the team responsible for future facility upkeep and upgrades. At the new stadium in Orchard Park, that $280 million cost over 30 years will fall on state government in the Bills agreement.
• And in some key areas, the agreements are similar. Both deals make the team responsible for cost overruns – an important tenet underscored by the cost of the Bills stadium rising by $140 million since the agreement was reached.
Taxpayers are footing the bill for about 60% of the cost of both projects. But the $1.26 billion in public money earmarked for the Titans project is almost 50% more than the funding dedicated by the state and county to the Bills new stadium. That includes Nashville’s commitment of $760 million to stadium construction far outdoing Erie County’s contribution of $250 million.
Erie County Executive Mark C. Poloncarz said he feels good about the agreement.
“If you look at the two deals that basically have been announced in the same time period, ours is far superior in the investment back into our community,” Poloncarz said. “It’s a stronger deal in the end.”
Some, Poloncarz noted, have questioned the public dollars committed to the project.
"The county's contribution to the stadium is fairly small for a local government," Poloncarz said, "and in return we're going to get a substantial commitment from the Bills.”
But before coming to any final conclusions, it is important that the structure of the deals, funding sources and the differences between the two cities and the stadiums planned be considered, said Marc Ganis, an expert in sports and stadium finance who is the president of international film platform Jiaflix.
After all, Nashville and Buffalo are very different markets, with Nashville having the advantage of warmer weather, faster economic growth and the year-round tourist draw of country music and a bustling downtown.
“Nashville will have a domed stadium expected to be used to get a lot of other big events in a moderate climate market that is one of the fastest growing and dynamic communities in the country,” Ganis said. “In Buffalo, this is strictly a football stadium.”
But in the Bills deal, Ganis pointed out how important it was that Erie County officials were able to get more money to come from Albany for the stadium. The county's funding portion for stadium construction only accounts for 16% of the total project cost.
“In many ways, it was more important to get this done in Buffalo than, perhaps, even Nashville,” Ganis said. “The Titans weren’t going anywhere because it is such a growing market, but in Buffalo, frankly, there was a chance the team would go somewhere else if this deal didn’t get done. It did get done and that came from a lot of money from the state, rather than from the local community. That’s a big win for Erie County.”
Here's how the deals compare in certain key areas:
Construction labor
While the Bills’ stadium agreement comes with a more robust project labor agreement governing rules for construction and emphasizing specific goals for minority- and women-owned businesses, the Titans have said they are also prioritizing diverse and small businesses and promoting other initiatives focused on economic growth and professional training.
The deal in Tennessee will require "fair wages" for stadium construction workers as well, but the $18 an hour minimum wage mandated in that agreement will be markedly less.
The use of prevailing wages in Orchard Park will likely result in the workers on the $1.54 billion Bills stadium project being paid a higher minimum wage than those working on the Titans stadium.
According to New York State labor law, contractors and subcontractors must pay the prevailing wage in the locality where the work is being done, as well as fringe benefits to all workers. For example, the prevailing wage for a carpenter in Erie County is roughly $32 an hour, with benefit costs equal to another $12 to $15 an hour, according to state Labor Department data.
Separate Labor Department data pegs the market rate for carpenters locally at a median of almost $24 an hour. An Empire Center study in 2017 concluded that prevailing wage rates, including benefits, in the Buffalo Niagara region were 84% higher than the local market rates.
Bills new stadium a private project that will play under many state, county rules
About 400 companies are expected to be involved in working on hundreds of assorted bid packages that are part of the new stadium construction and demolition of the current one.
A construction development agreement with the Bills promises most of the work stays local and sets specific goals for the hiring process. There is an overall participation goal of 30% for Minority Women Business Enterprises – 15% each – and a 6% goal for Service-Disabled Veteran-Owned Businesses.
But critics of the Bills agreement say that the project labor agreement boxed out most nonunion firms employing construction workers in the Buffalo-area.
Ken Girardin, a fellow for the Empire Center for Public Policy, said only certain people in the community – especially those in organized labor – will benefit from the Bills labor agreement. Although the project labor agreement does not exclude nonunion contractors from bidding on work, it makes it challenging for them to use their entire crews, due to union labor requirements in the agreement.
“No one could look at the labor deals around the stadium deal and say that this was a smart business move or even a good move economically around the region,” Girardin said. “For taxpayers, it’s a bigger loser than the Bills in the Super Bowl.”
The Titans say the team is also prioritizing local businesses, goods and labor in construction and vendor contracts. Its construction agreement includes a workforce development program aimed at maximizing minority inclusion and opportunities in stadium construction and beyond. There also will be a $2 million fund established for loans and grants for qualified small and diverse businesses who need access to capital.
"Ultimately, increasing opportunities for workforce and small business development, nurturing and enhancing our neighborhoods in need, and supporting education at all levels was what the community believed would be most impactful,” said Adolpho Birch, senior vice president and chief legal officer for the Titans.
Community benefits
The community benefits agreement reached in the Bills deal will put $100 million into community-based ventures, versus $47 million for the Titans over the 30-year leases.
What's in Bills' community benefits agreement? Public transit, diverse hiring, civic events and more
The agreement outlines the Bills' commitment to supporting direct, local participation in the stadium project and to providing money for everything from recycling and youth programs to mental health and hunger issues.
Poloncarz has pinpointed the strength of the community benefits agreement as one of the most critical parts of the deal with the team. The Bills will disperse $3 million a year, though that amount could rise by as much as 2.2% a year, depending on the consumer price index, over 30 years.
As part of the Titans deal, the team would create the Nashville Needs Impact Fund and contribute $1 million to it in the first year of the lease and that contribution would increase by 3% each year over 30 years.
Like Buffalo, the Titans will organize a committee of local stakeholders responsible to review the Titans' progress with dispersing funds for community programming, make suggestions on where the dollars should go and publish an annual report for key stakeholders.
“We're going to have (more) that's going to be coming back into this community through the Bills during the life of the lease,” Poloncarz said. “That can be focused in many different areas.”
Cost overruns
Here the agreements are similar.
The Bills will pick up the rest of the tab and any cost overruns. The Titans are also responsible for project cost overruns.
Stadium maintenance
There is a $280 million difference between the two deals.
Deal allows for 6% surcharge on all purchases at new Bills stadium
The potential surcharge would shift the local cost of ongoing maintenance and improvements at the stadium from Erie County taxpayers to the fans who go to the games, County Executive Mark Poloncarz said.
Much of the Bills' maintenance costs will be paid by taxpayers. The state will pay $6 million per year for 30 years into a capital improvement fund for the stadium, and $6.67 million per year for 15 years into a maintenance and repair fund – or $280 million over the length of the lease.
The county will make payments into those funds based on revenue generated by surcharges on new stadium ticketing, parking and concessions.
In the Titans deal, stadium maintenance becomes the responsibility of the team.
As part of the Titans deal, the team also agreed to waive $32 million owed by Nashville for the money spent by the team maintaining the current stadium over the past four years, and $30 million additionally owed in bonds. And the Titans paying for future maintenance at the new stadium, shifts the future tax burden to the franchise, according to the team.
Spinoff potential
The Titans stadium is a larger project with more trickle-down potential than a new Bills stadium in an area of Orchard Park that has seen little spinoff development during the 50 years that Highmark Stadium has been there.
Public funding for Tennessee Titans stadium eclipses money for Bills
The Tennessee Titans are closing in on an agreement for a new stadium and the City of Nashville and Tennessee could be pumping in up to $1.26 billion in public money for what will reportedly be between a $2.1 billion and $2.2 billion project.
The public investment in the Titans project could yield more for Nashville and the surrounding area, with a domed downtown stadium potentially bringing larger events like the Super Bowl and Final Four to the area. That’s something that won’t happen at the Bills’ new open-air stadium.
The agreement could also serve as the launching pad for future development in Nashville, transforming land currently used as surface parking lots into a large park, greenways, affordable housing, a multimodal boulevard, local businesses and a transit hub.
The Bills deal also provides for a transit hub, but there are no plans at this point for helping the area nearby to the stadium see the kind of trickle-down development that hasn't occurred over the past five decades in Orchard Park.
"We came out … with a more fiscally responsible deal for taxpayers and a future world-class city asset,” Nashville Mayor John Cooper said. “This is a win for Nashville.”"
In terms of the bolded, the problem is that the other article I posted illustrates that there is spinoff potential given that ECC is looking to move and there are other sites near the new stadium. So, if the article is talking about "potential", one would have to refer back to that other article from March, in terms of spinoff potential.
Also, the article just shows that when comparing some aspects favor the Bills deal and others the Titans deal. It may be a matter of what one is referring to.
We again also have to be careful with the term "market", as that can be referred to differently when looking at certain aspects of the topic. Especially when considering that the Nashville metro area is spread out and has less people than the Buffalo and Rochester metro areas do combined(about 2-2.1 million for Nashville vs. 2.2-2.3 million for Buffalo/Rochester combined), but the Nashville area has the land area of the Buffalo, Rochester and Syracuse metro areas combined with room to spare(7484 sq. mi. vs 6900 sq. mi. for those 3 NY metro areas which have about/almost 3 million people combined). So, this is an example of how "market" should be put in quotes, as going by just metro area for a league with a one game a week schedule that can bring in people from nearby areas doesn't cut it.
Last edited by ckhthankgod; Yesterday at 10:07 AM..
I would say that the Titans and the City of Nashville got a much better deal. They got a domed stadium downtown, which can host all kinds of events.
"The Titans stadium is a larger project with more trickle-down potential than a new Bills stadium in an area of Orchard Park that has seen little spinoff development during the 50 years that Highmark Stadium has been there."
"The public investment in the Titans project could yield more for Nashville and the surrounding area, with a domed downtown stadium potentially bringing larger events like the Super Bowl and Final Four to the area. That’s something that won’t happen at the Bills’ new open-air stadium."
So what did Buffalo actually get beside a political windfall? The same old stadium, with a few new bells and whistles at the same spot. I'll wager that if the Bills faithful knew about the PSLs in advance, they would have been overwhelmingly in favor of keeping the old stadium. That unfortunately was not an option, with the lease expiring in 2023 and other cities rolling out the welcome mats.
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