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I have lived in New England my whole life - presently in a suburb of Portland, Maine. I lived in Vermont for 6 years as a kid, and return for vacations frequently. I have considered moving there, but on top of the high cost of housing is those nutso property taxes.
For example, a house just sold on Flynn Ave in Burlington - a house we had rented as an airbnb 2 years ago. It's small - a 2 bedroom 1 bath with a garage, circa 1960s. The neighbors on both sides are a single driveway's width away. The house last sold in 2005 for $250k, and just sold last month for $589k, which was $12k over the asking price. Again, this is a 2 bedroom, 1 bath house.
The property taxes on this place went from $6700 (!) in 2020, to $8900 (!!) in 2021 - a jump in one year of over $2k. I know the city decided to do a residential property tax assessment in the middle of the pandemic, which blows the mind. This new tax rate is $741 a month on top of the mortgage.
Here in Maine, I live in a 1960s duplex I own with 2 bedrooms & 1 ba per side on .3 acres on a quiet dead end street. My taxes are $3k a year. The same house in Portand would be around $4500 - $5k in taxes.
The taxes on the same house in Burlington or within commuting distance to same? Apparently $9k.
To add insult to injury, my taxes include weekly trash pickup. Vermont with its high taxes doesn't even include trash pickup - you have to hire a private company yourself. (This results in the loud, smelly trash trucks coming down your street multiple days a week since different companies have different pickup days.)
Portland and Burlington are very similar cities. Both are the biggest cities in their northern New England states. Both are relatively small population wise and have loads of good qualities, quality of life, lots of cultural amenities, low unemployment, good schools, low crime, etc.
PLEASE ENLIGHTEN ME - what is up with Vermont's property taxes? NOT JUST in Burlington, either?
Most people don't pay the full amount of their property taxes. The state has a generous tax credit program on the educational tax portion of your tax bill. If you have a combined household income tax of $136K or less you qualify (assuming you meed the other qualifications as well). https://tax.vermont.gov/property/tax-credit
Burlington did have a big jump that year, partly because of the re-assessment, also partly because voters voted in a larger than usual budget.
Thank you for the response and the link. Do you know what the tax credit tends to represent? Ie for that house where the tax rate is nearly $9k - if that household makes less than $136k, what sort of break do they get on that $9k?
My main question is still out there - what could possibly be the reason that property taxes in a very similar northern New England city (Portland, Maine) are nowhere near as high as those in Burlington? And it's not just Burlington that has wildly high property taxes - same with Montpelier, Warren, Waitsfield, Waterbury, Stowe.
My main question is still out there - what could possibly be the reason that property taxes in a very similar northern New England city (Portland, Maine) are nowhere near as high as those in Burlington? And it's not just Burlington that has wildly high property taxes - same with Montpelier, Warren, Waitsfield, Waterbury, Stowe.
There are two parts to this answer: 1. How much is spent, and 2. Where revenue comes from. Here are two useful links:
Vermont: spending = $9.6k / resident, main revenue sources 1. property tax, 2. personal income tax
Maine: spending = $7.7k / resident, main revenue sources 1. personal income tax, 2. sales tax
So the answer to your question is, 1. Vermont spends ~25% more per capita than Maine does, and 2. Vermont chooses to collect a much larger share of its taxes from property than Maine does.
Thank you for the response and the link. Do you know what the tax credit tends to represent? Ie for that house where the tax rate is nearly $9k - if that household makes less than $136k, what sort of break do they get on that $9k?
My main question is still out there - what could possibly be the reason that property taxes in a very similar northern New England city (Portland, Maine) are nowhere near as high as those in Burlington? And it's not just Burlington that has wildly high property taxes - same with Montpelier, Warren, Waitsfield, Waterbury, Stowe.
Thanks again.
Education is funded through property taxes in VT. But you probably already know that. It's also some convoluted formula that even some tax people can't explain as is the rebate you receive depending on income. VT taxes everything. It's one of the only ways they know how to fund any initiatives.
We don't have industry sufficient enough to contribute to the tax base IMO that might help lower the burden on the property owner like other states do. Generally, costs increase every year what with teachers' salaries and benefits and maintenance costs on aging structures, etc. No one has any influence over the teachers' union, apparently, and there are some factors that the state controls, so those elements are out of any local control. In my small town, the school board tries its best to keep costs down and has returned surplus to the taxpayers when they've been able.
Town taxes are part of the total property tax as well but are usually, in my case, 1/2 what the education tax is. No complaints on that at all. We have roads to maintain and plow, culverts to replace, town clerks and other employees to pay, etc.
We got a rebate this year because we are now both retired and our income is reduced. I intentionally hold off on taking $401K money (and social security) because that's going to get taxed and probably bring me right back up to 'no rebate.' We are looking to move as the political scene here leans more and more progressive with elected officials who don't make any effort to provide relief to the taxpayers.
Young people don't stay here because there are really not many fields here where you can make a salary robust enough to withstand sthe costs of living here, either renting or purchasing a home, and/or raising children. Can't do it on $15/bucks an hour.
Some come back when they get older and tired of living in the city.
Vermont: spending = $9.6k / resident, main revenue sources 1. property tax, 2. personal income tax
Maine: spending = $7.7k / resident, main revenue sources 1. personal income tax, 2. sales tax
So the answer to your question is, 1. Vermont spends ~25% more per capita than Maine does, and 2. Vermont chooses to collect a much larger share of its taxes from property than Maine does.
Thank you for the links and info. It's a head scratcher of a system. Do those who make the rules in Vermont want to drive people from the state? Even if my personal income tax may be higher here than in Vermont, the average salary that I've seen for a similar job to mine appears to be lower in Burlington than in Portland. I don't even want to be paying the $3k in property tax that I presently do, but it doesn't seem outrageous, and, among other things, at least I get my trash picked up weekly as part of that tax.
I do love so much about Vermont and lived there for 6 yrs of my life as a young person, so I specially hate to see it creating the conditions that drive people away - certainly anyone in the famously disappearing middle class.
Education is funded through property taxes in VT. But you probably already know that. It's also some convoluted formula that even some tax people can't explain as is the rebate you receive depending on income. VT taxes everything. It's one of the only ways they know how to fund any initiatives.
We don't have industry sufficient enough to contribute to the tax base IMO that might help lower the burden on the property owner like other states do. Generally, costs increase every year what with teachers' salaries and benefits and maintenance costs on aging structures, etc. No one has any influence over the teachers' union, apparently, and there are some factors that the state controls, so those elements are out of any local control. In my small town, the school board tries its best to keep costs down and has returned surplus to the taxpayers when they've been able.
Town taxes are part of the total property tax as well but are usually, in my case, 1/2 what the education tax is. No complaints on that at all. We have roads to maintain and plow, culverts to replace, town clerks and other employees to pay, etc.
We got a rebate this year because we are now both retired and our income is reduced. I intentionally hold off on taking $401K money (and social security) because that's going to get taxed and probably bring me right back up to 'no rebate.' We are looking to move as the political scene here leans more and more progressive with elected officials who don't make any effort to provide relief to the taxpayers.
Young people don't stay here because there are really not many fields here where you can make a salary robust enough to withstand sthe costs of living here, either renting or purchasing a home, and/or raising children. Can't do it on $15/bucks an hour.
Some come back when they get older and tired of living in the city.
Thank you for your response. You are undoubtedly right that there isn't enough industry to help with the tax burden, but I just can't imagine that equally rural Maine has tons more industry, though our population is almost double that of Vermont's, true.
I don't mind paying a reasonable property tax to fund schools, snow plowing, fixing roads and bridges, and my weekly trash pickup. I just can't believe that an absolutely average/ordinary small 1960s house in Burlington that is only 2 bedrooms and 1 bath actually warrants nearly $9k in property taxes, but I've seen it with my own eyes. Something is seriously wrong, there. Nobody in their right mind is going to want to stay, when they can just move to another state (such as Maine) with equally good quality of life, and much lower property taxes (and less snow!).
I'm curious if I may ask, where are you thinking of moving? I have considered southern places (Savannah and such) because of the beauty, history, walkability, low cost of living, but I can't stomach the politics nor the higher crime that seems to accompany most southern cities compared with equal sized cities up north.
Thank you for your response. You are undoubtedly right that there isn't enough industry to help with the tax burden, but I just can't imagine that equally rural Maine has tons more industry, though our population is almost double that of Vermont's, true.
I don't mind paying a reasonable property tax to fund schools, snow plowing, fixing roads and bridges, and my weekly trash pickup. I just can't believe that an absolutely average/ordinary small 1960s house in Burlington that is only 2 bedrooms and 1 bath actually warrants nearly $9k in property taxes, but I've seen it with my own eyes. Something is seriously wrong, there. Nobody in their right mind is going to want to stay, when they can just move to another state (such as Maine) with equally good quality of life, and much lower property taxes (and less snow!).
I'm curious if I may ask, where are you thinking of moving? I have considered southern places (Savannah and such) because of the beauty, history, walkability, low cost of living, but I can't stomach the politics nor the higher crime that seems to accompany most southern cities compared with equal sized cities up north.
What politics are you talking about? Although Vermont has a Republican Governor, every other elected official seems to be a Democrat. You get what you vote for.
In a suburb of Savannah, we pay about $3400.in property taxes and no income tax, since we are over 65. For younger families, there are HOPE scholarships that pay tuition in state colleges. It’s kind of a trade off, no matter where you live. What are your priorities? Pay this or pay that. The public schools tend to be poor down here.
Last edited by gentlearts; 08-14-2022 at 06:01 PM..
Thank you for the links and info. It's a head scratcher of a system. Do those who make the rules in Vermont want to drive people from the state? Even if my personal income tax may be higher here than in Vermont, the average salary that I've seen for a similar job to mine appears to be lower in Burlington than in Portland. I don't even want to be paying the $3k in property tax that I presently do, but it doesn't seem outrageous, and, among other things, at least I get my trash picked up weekly as part of that tax.
I do love so much about Vermont and lived there for 6 yrs of my life as a young person, so I specially hate to see it creating the conditions that drive people away - certainly anyone in the famously disappearing middle class.
I have to pay to have my trash picked up every other week OR I can take it to the dump myself and pay them to take it. We got tired of that after 20 years.
Something else I forgot to mention about our education funding - we have 'supervisory unions' which oversee school operations. In my particular area, the union covers only 4 schools with @1800 students and is a whole 'nother layer of (IMO) unnecessary costs. The head guy makes at least $100K. Multiply this by 60 or so unions. And each cover just a few schools. I've always thought consolidating this into a county wide operation would make much more sense.
In my 20 years here I have never seen a sincere effort to reduce the burden on taxpayers, other than the education tax 'rebate.' The people in Montpelier pursue other agendas, and like much of Washington DC, seem to care not one whit about the middle class, despite their protestations to the contrary.
Governor Scott (a republican, BTW) ran on 'making VT more affordable.' Ain't seen that yet.
As to where we might move: Lower cost of living and an 'easier' winter (effort and cost wise) were the priority, but so was clean, open green spaces, low crime rate, not alot of traffic. We've looked in SC, NC, TN and WY. Neither TN or WY tax pensions but WY winters are brutal. That said, it's a wild wide open space, with VT population in about 10+ times the area. Beautiful but somewhat desolate in places. That's on the back burner. I could continue with winter in the right place.
NC and SC were simply too crowded for us. Everyone seems to want to go there for the weather. New Englanders who move to FL come back to these states during the summer because now FL is too hot. TN is nice but also getting crowded. I know many people from CA who moved there for tax reasons.
We were waiting til I retired in 2020 to start looking again but then COVID hit, and all things considered, we're probably better off here than we would have been anywhere else in many respects.
We plan to look around Maine and NH (which also doesn't tax pensions btw). Being close to good medical care has moved up in priority somewhat.
I have to pay to have my trash picked up every other week OR I can take it to the dump myself and pay them to take it. We got tired of that after 20 years.
Something else I forgot to mention about our education funding - we have 'supervisory unions' which oversee school operations. In my particular area, the union covers only 4 schools with @1800 students and is a whole 'nother layer of (IMO) unnecessary costs. The head guy makes at least $100K. Multiply this by 60 or so unions. And each cover just a few schools. I've always thought consolidating this into a county wide operation would make much more sense.
In my 20 years here I have never seen a sincere effort to reduce the burden on taxpayers, other than the education tax 'rebate.' The people in Montpelier pursue other agendas, and like much of Washington DC, seem to care not one whit about the middle class, despite their protestations to the contrary.
Governor Scott (a republican, BTW) ran on 'making VT more affordable.' Ain't seen that yet.
As to where we might move: Lower cost of living and an 'easier' winter (effort and cost wise) were the priority, but so was clean, open green spaces, low crime rate, not alot of traffic. We've looked in SC, NC, TN and WY. Neither TN or WY tax pensions but WY winters are brutal. That said, it's a wild wide open space, with VT population in about 10+ times the area. Beautiful but somewhat desolate in places. That's on the back burner. I could continue with winter in the right place.
NC and SC were simply too crowded for us. Everyone seems to want to go there for the weather. New Englanders who move to FL come back to these states during the summer because now FL is too hot. TN is nice but also getting crowded. I know many people from CA who moved there for tax reasons.
We were waiting til I retired in 2020 to start looking again but then COVID hit, and all things considered, we're probably better off here than we would have been anywhere else in many respects.
We plan to look around Maine and NH (which also doesn't tax pensions btw). Being close to good medical care has moved up in priority somewhat.
Trivia, and working from memory; Back when WDEV's "Music To Go To The Dump By" program started on Saturday mornings, the title was quite literal. The first Waterbury dump had a gentleman who (afaik) lived there (or had a shack there) to tend it. It was chained off during much of the week. On Saturday mornings people would come with their trash and were directed by him where it went. Foodstuff (which there was very little of) went one place, furniture and appliances another, metals another, tires another, paints and oils another. For a short while, it was almost a social event with some gleaning allowed. IIRC, the foodstuff waste was buried after dump hours and some selected items were burned, to extend the life of the dump.
That small dump stayed relatively pest free. It eventually filled and another larger one was opened - minus the supervisor, and effectively open any day, with a town bulldozer sometimes being used to cover parts of the trash or push them into the pit. That one is the one most remember as the infamous Waterbury Dump. One day when I was eight, my older brother and I took an unauthorized trip down there. I had never shot his 22 before, but that day I alone shot over twenty rats, using maybe twenty-five bullets. He shot a similar number.
That day remains in memory for a number of reasons. I discovered that I was a really good shot, about as good as my brother, I learned just how bad an uncontrolled rat population can get, and how allowing trash to all be dumped together without thought created problems.
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As for hot summers in the south - I've lived in NC, GA, AL, FL in addition to the northeast. Summers in the southeast are all hot and humid once you get much further south than MA. The partial exception is southeast coastal Florida, where the heat of the Everglades pulls cool(er) air off the ocean and the resultant afternoon downpours cool the areas with vegetation a little. However, it is not the pleasant place it used to be. The coastal panhandle can sometimes feel cooler with constant breezes.
You would likely like and feel comfortable in parts of north Alabama. It isn't for everyone, but then neither is Vermont.
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TN is nice but also getting crowded. I know many people from CA who moved there for tax reasons. 
