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I don't know how it works in other parts of planet earth. But the north east is the money zone of planet earth, with every single fricking corporation on earth.
You can get away with the following wardrobe in New York City. Monday thru Friday, just get a blazer on top or a cardigan sort of thing, and you may even win fans.
I am sure people have issues in the rest of the country. I have been to a few hillbilly places to present prototypes as part of my once upon a time job. I came across fat slobs in jeans/sneakers and women in grandma clothes. You will definitely have a problem here, not becoz you have dressed well, but becoz you will be the center of attention, like a sapphire amidst pebbles
I once went with a female associate and the conference room was filled with so much drool that I was slipping on the floor over and over, I held on to the projector latch in the corner of the room.
Monday through Friday. This may not be your style, but rock whatever you want. Just remember, no cleavage, no ultra mini skirts and no flirting at work, and you can be girly in appearance alone and still exhibit power in work.
Monday through Friday. This may not be your style, but rock whatever you want. Just remember, no cleavage, no ultra mini skirts and no flirting at work, and you can be girly in appearance alone and still exhibit power in work.
While you can have whatever opinion you like on matters, the research doesn't agree with your view on this matter. Those with more "girlie" appearances will, on average, do worse in a corporate environment. This is especially true of environments that are largely male dominated. Though the "girlie" girl may get a lot of attention, people may like her, etc....that doesn't usually translate into promotions, etc.
Nordstorm? I always find it interesting the amounts people will pay for items that have production values of $5~$10....
While you can have whatever opinion you like on matters, the research doesn't agree with your view on this matter. Those with more "girlie" appearances will, on average, do worse in a corporate environment. This is especially true of environments that are largely male dominated. Though the "girlie" girl may get a lot of attention, people may like her, etc....that doesn't usually translate into promotions, etc.
Nordstorm? I always find it interesting the amounts people will pay for items that have production values of $5~$10....
Either provide something of value or get out. No need to put people down with your fancied projected production value worth.
Nobody's asking anyone to shop in Nordstrom. It was an example. It's a woman's job to fish out what fits into her budget.
FYI, individuals in a corporation advance on a personal performance basis. If something else happened in the 70s, prior to the feminist movement, I'm sorry that happened. Not sure where you work, but women are more powerful these days. Fact.
FYI, individuals in a corporation advance on a personal performance basis. If something else happened in the 70s, prior to the feminist movement, I'm sorry that happened.
Perhaps in some imagined utopia, but that isn't how things work in the real world. In the real world advancements are much more fuzzy, office politics, appearance, etc all come into play. Business decisions are made by people and people are simply unable to make entirely unbiased decisions determined solely by objective measures of merit.
But I suppose its easier to think that you just have to "work hard", etc to get promoted....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antlered Chamataka
Not sure where you work, but women are more powerful these days.
I'm really not sure what you mean by this, but the top management and the executive ranks of business is still very much dominated by men.
Perhaps in some imagined utopia, but that isn't how things work in the real world. In the real world advancements are much more fuzzy, office politics, appearance, etc all come into play. Business decisions are made by people and people are simply unable to make entirely unbiased decisions determined solely by objective measures of merit.
But I suppose its easier to think that you just have to "work hard", etc to get promoted....
I'm really not sure what you mean by this, but the top management and the executive ranks of business is still very much dominated by men.
First up, I'll tell you I don't work in the construction, shoveling or lumberjack business. So if that's what happens in that part of the world, we need not have this conversation
I do however agree that appearance alone is not gonna advance a person's career, which means a woman can be all girly as she wants and yet be a beyotch when it comes to performance. Eye candy and being a corporate lioness in attitude, politics and performance, that's the deadliest combination.
I disagree with you strongly. My domain has been tech, banking, finance and media in the east coast my entire life, I haven't been in healthcare barring a minor stint in the mid-west, which is where I found average people of the non-dressy type.
Most of my bosses happened to be women and they dressed feminine, as in skirts and dresses, but were complete beyotches, the men literally were scared of them. While I may have been a desk monkey in my younger years, I'm more of a corporate strategist today where I work exclusively with executives only. I look around the room and at least half of them are women. The verdict is out there on wall street and main street, women are taking more and more of the top tier positions than the men. The gap has been closing for a while now. If you're stuck in the 70s and 80s, that's your problem. Or, you're simply counting CEOs and CFOs only. You know they don't make the company one-handed, right?
First up, I'll tell you I don't work in the construction, shoveling or lumberjack business.
Right, I understand that you're a mid-income paper pusher who obviously has an inflated ego about his perceived status...but deriding people in construction, etc isn't do anything for your point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antlered Chamataka
Most of my bosses happened to be women and they dressed feminine, as in skirts and dresses, but were complete beyotches, the men literally were scared of them.
Firstly, I have never suggested that a wearing a dress, in itself, makes someone "girlie". Secondly, I'm making a statistical generalization so pointing to some counter-examples is immaterial.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antlered Chamataka
...I'm more of a corporate strategist today where I work exclusively with executives only. I look around the room and at least half of them are women.
Obviously you're not working "exclusively with executives"......just people that you are, for whatever reason, calling executives....
Anyhow, your claim is easily refuted by looking at a list of top executives (CEO, CFO, etc) from the Fortune 500. Indeed, you'll find that your claim is wildly wrong.. For example only around 4% of Fortune 500 companies have women CEOs....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antlered Chamataka
The verdict is out there on wall street and main street, women are taking more and more of the top tier positions than the men. The gap has been closing for a while now.
This is also wrong. Despite the fact that women have become more educated over the years the gender gap in executive positions hasn't changed much. Using the Fortune 500 again, we're talking about a shift from around 2% to 4% over the last few decades. The ratios aren't that different for lower ranking executives either.....after all most CEOs get promoted from within and were lower ranking executives before they were CEOs. Would be odd for the lower ranks to be close to 50/50...yet the higher ranks to be around 5/95.
Now, if you look at low/mid level management (aka paper pushers) then your claims are more accurate. Though these positions are still dominated by man, the ratios aren't as bad as the executive ranks (its around 35/65).
But my original comments had nothing to do with the ratio of women/men in executive positions, etc. Instead my claim was that women who dress and behave "girlie" will be at a disadvantage when it comes to promotions. That is to say, if you have two people of equal talent and one is a girlie-girl and the other isn't the one that isn't will, in general, get promoted.
I am utterly confused by this discussion. I work with CEOs, COOs, and CFOs, attorneys and CPAs at the corporate level . . . now when working with creative folks, that's a totally different matter (as far as style of dress). But in boardrooms and legal firms . . . it is all the same, for the successful female. The sharp exec types and the up and coming potential execs look pretty much like the female attorneys on "The Good Wife."
My clients are in the South, mid-Atlantic and midwest. Sadly, don't have any occasion these days to do the west coast . . .
Here's a fashion slideshow from "The Good Wife" . . . the edgier stuff that Kalinda wears is a bit too short to translate to most offices . . . but notice the characters of Diane and Alicia . . . they are spot on, from dresses and suits to the accessories and hair.
Nothing wrong with wearing pink as long as it is either an accent color (pink jacket, navy/grey/black skirt) or you have on a suit that is pink - and toned down accessories, i.e. - maybe pearls and dark shoes. But the mainstays of your wardrobe should be black, navy, grey, aubergine. Blouses can provide that pop of color.
A corporate look can be ruined w/ the wrong shoes. Stay fairly conservative (not old-lady - but not gladiator, either, lol). Heels are fine but not only will it be impractical to go higher than 3" - it will look ridiculous.
Better to err on the side of being too prep than being too fashion forward.
If you want to be part of the upper echelon, dress like you are part of the upper echelon. It is fine to be a little more upscale than everyone on your level but it is never okay to be more casual than everyone on your level.
Cleavage is never a good idea, except for afterhours benefits or galas. Senior execs over 50 can get away w/ a lower neckline during the day on occasion (but still - never actual cleavage) For younger newbies or junior execs, this is a career killer.
When you get hired, note how the upper level female execs dress.
The rule to keep in mind is . . . nothing wrong with looking like a woman . . . but it is never smart to look SEXY.
As a sidebar - "where to purchase expensive, upscale clothing" . . . look for sales. But don't rule out consignment shops. You can find wonderful items at a fraction of the price, wh/ will stretch your work wardrobe dollar.
Oh - and wear a serious watch. On occasion, a fashion watch can be fun, but for day in and day out . . . a serious watch becomes a signature item.
Last edited by brokensky; 01-04-2012 at 05:32 AM..
I am of the belief that how you dress is a reflection of what you're trying to say about yourself, and what you're trying to accomplish. This goes for both sexes.
You can be stylish (which doesn't mean you have to shop at the expensive, high-end stores either), feminine, yet professional. Save the "sexy" clothes for outside of the work environment. Remember Debrahlee Lorenzana, the female who claimed that she was fired from CitiBank for being "too hot"?
Right, I understand that you're a mid-income paper pusher who obviously has an inflated ego about his perceived status...but deriding people in construction, etc isn't do anything for your point.
Firstly, I have never suggested that a wearing a dress, in itself, makes someone "girlie". Secondly, I'm making a statistical generalization so pointing to some counter-examples is immaterial.
Obviously you're not working "exclusively with executives"......just people that you are, for whatever reason, calling executives....
Anyhow, your claim is easily refuted by looking at a list of top executives (CEO, CFO, etc) from the Fortune 500. Indeed, you'll find that your claim is wildly wrong.. For example only around 4% of Fortune 500 companies have women CEOs....
This is also wrong. Despite the fact that women have become more educated over the years the gender gap in executive positions hasn't changed much. Using the Fortune 500 again, we're talking about a shift from around 2% to 4% over the last few decades. The ratios aren't that different for lower ranking executives either.....after all most CEOs get promoted from within and were lower ranking executives before they were CEOs. Would be odd for the lower ranks to be close to 50/50...yet the higher ranks to be around 5/95.
Now, if you look at low/mid level management (aka paper pushers) then your claims are more accurate. Though these positions are still dominated by man, the ratios aren't as bad as the executive ranks (its around 35/65).
But my original comments had nothing to do with the ratio of women/men in executive positions, etc. Instead my claim was that women who dress and behave "girlie" will be at a disadvantage when it comes to promotions. That is to say, if you have two people of equal talent and one is a girlie-girl and the other isn't the one that isn't will, in general, get promoted.
This rant is supposed to work me up? Is that the intention? I'll have to fight tooth and nail with you and bring up my job detail and my income bracket blah blah blah? I'm not taking the bait.
Your notion on the evolving corporate world is outdated and extinct.
I gave the OP the notion that she can exercise her feminism, show her visual assets off in a decent, non-provocative way based on my ongoing experience in the field, yet you come out with your mothballed, gassamer-ridden outlook of the professional world. News Flash, she is not probably gonna do accounting with lumberjacks or taking a government job. And baby boomers are retiring.
The trend has changed. Women are breaking more and more into the higher rungs of the corporate ladder, becoz the dynamics of a male-dominated professional society are changing. The ongoing economic crisis has evened the playing field.
If you live in the past, that's your problem. And wipe that sweat off your forehead I eagerly await your next response. I love pissing contests and I have pissed from atop a cliff even.
Signed:
300 lbs Mid-income paper pusher
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I eagerly await your next response. I love pissing contests and I have pissed from atop a cliff even.
