When Hispanics become majority of this state (mid-2014), will there be white flight? (San Francisco: sale, apartments)

[majoun]

Originally Posted by Ultrarunner

And it was voted approved and enjoys overwhelming grassroots support.

Remember... business, including corporations, cannot vote.

Prop 13 also favors those at poverty level incomes too that have owned their homes for decades...

My 100 year old neighbor bought her home in 1960 and pays the lowest property tax in the neighborhood... she has no pension other than social security and less than 1% interest on what is left from her savings...

This is the beauty of Prop 13... makes no difference if one is rich or poor... all are treated the same.

Is it fair that her kids will get to have lower taxes than everyone else in the neighborhood? Is it fair for the newcomers to indirectly subsidize her?

What you call "beauty" is really inflexibility - the same arguments you give for Prop 13 could also be used to justify Sharia or North Korean law. Prop 13 subsidizes large landowners and hereditary elites on the backs of the rest of society.

Low property taxes have all sorts of ill effects as we have seen in California, Nevada, Arizona, and Florida. The taxes that a state or country should try to keep low or nonexistent are sales taxes. Sales taxes discourage commercial transactions and hurt business. If California had not lowered property taxes but had slashed sales taxes and kept them low, it would be in much better shape. Much more efficient.

[Gentoo]

Originally Posted by BeauCharles

I was just at a fast food restaurant in Oroville tonight (didn't want more holiday food). There were six young Latinos there and they were carrying on their conversation in English. Two quietly said a few sentences in Spanish but that was it. This county is only about 14 to 15 percent Hispanic so maybe the young assimilate faster. I did notice while living in Salinas that Spanish was much more heard, even among the U.S. raised and educated young (not to say they couldn't speak English). Maybe when an immigrant community reaches a certain size in an area there becomes less of an impetus to assimilate or conform.

There seems to be a critical mass effect for sure. I'm in Chula Vista and in many places, the staff is so used to using Spanish that they will greet you in Spanish before realizing that most blacks probably don't speak much Spanish. Most of the time, I know what they're saying though.

[Ultrarunner]

Originally Posted by majoun

Is it fair that her kids will get to have lower taxes than everyone else in the neighborhood?

Prop 13 has nothing to do with children or heirs... THERE IS NO PROVISION IN PROP 13 FOR THIS.

In the case of this 100 year old... she has one daughter that lives far away... the daughter was here for Christmas and I posed the question if she would consider ever moving back... she was 100% certain she will never move back to Oakland California and should anything happen to Mom... the home would be sold as soon as possible.

Is it fair for the newcomers to indirectly subsidize her?

I think you are looking at it the wrong way... Is it fair for a 100 year old to pay higher taxes just because others are more than willing to pay more... then, there is the entire concept of the who paid for the existing infrastructure?

She and the family I bought my home from paid 30 year assessments for street lights, the local school, draingage and roads... I did not have to pay for these because those that came before did that.

I do have to pay a property tax based on the price I willing paid for the home...

Of course newcomers have all the same perceived benefits since longevity has nothing to do with Prop 13

Prop 13 simply uses acquisition price as the basis... as anyone knows... the price does not always go up and I am living proof... I bought near the peak of the market and a family that bought a 3000 square foot10 year old home on my street two years ago pays thousands less in taxes that I do for my 55 year old home with 1725 square feet.

[qoute]What you call "beauty" is really inflexibility - the same arguments you give for Prop 13 could also be used to justify Sharia or North Korean law. Prop 13 subsidizes large landowners and hereditary elites on the backs of the rest of society.[/quote]

I think the point is being missed... Prop 13 is simple... no volumes of legalese for lawyers to pour over... only a few short paragraphs... Prop 13 is 100% voter driven and approved... Prop 13 has withstood the equal protection clause challenge at the Supreme Court...

Again... Prop 13 has nothing to do with Heredity and to say so is misleading and a huge injustice.

Low property taxes have all sorts of ill effects as we have seen in California, Nevada, Arizona, and Florida. The taxes that a state or country should try to keep low or nonexistent are sales taxes. Sales taxes discourage commercial transactions and hurt business. If California had not lowered property taxes but had slashed sales taxes and kept them low, it would be in much better shape. Much more efficient.

We can disagree... My home is far more important to me than the amount of tax paid on something made in China or on a cell phone or new car.

California has no tax on food because it is an essential... well, after food comes shelter and the voter acted decisively to put in place a framework that provides stability and predictability regarding property tax...

As far as the shape of California... Governor Brown has said the future is bright and California is on target for a full recovery...

[Guineas]

Originally Posted by nightbird47

the neighborhood i lived in a few years before moving started out very mixed. There were black families, hispanic families, and white families. It was kept up, even if it was older houses. Aside from a few bad kids, i had no problems with my blond son playing with kids who were different. It was a comfortable, nice neighborhood.

Then the market exploded and people didn't want 'older' houses. A lot were bought up as rentals. Most of the people who moved in were latino. But they did things like sit on the lawn and watch while their older son beat up the younger son while mom got dinner prep going. And there was a mini sized gang on bicycles who did crap like trying to stop cars in the street. (i wouldn't and they parted but it was constant harrassment, usually only non-hispanics). And unmaintained houses and more real gang issues. It wasn't a problem with latino people moving in. It was a problem with people living in the local barrio moving in and turning it into another barrio.

People didn't speak any english and were unwilling to learn. The neighbor tore down our old fence without asking and claimed he didn't speak english. But my husband knew what he was saying and he knew enough. White families moved out. Black families moved out. The hispanic families who had lived there before moved out. One decent neighborhood lost. It's hard not to not want to be around spanish speakers with reminders like that. The people who destroyed the neighborhood don't represent all hispanics, but they do the most visible and loudest.

I didn't much enjoy hearing spanish after that. I didn't appreciate the attitude that you were the enemy that predominated. One of the reasons, besides cost of living and smog (breathing issues) that i moved was it just wasn't home anymore.

But i was at the hospital one day here in ok, and the girl doing tests, who was hispanic, asked me if i minded a question. She wanted to know why the hispanics out there did not learn and use english. Her family had moved when she was young and she had learned english as a matter of course. So had her family. She saw no reason why others should not.

When you go into a store, and nothing is in english, and its the only place nearby selling bus passes, and they can't find someone who speaks english to sell you one you know something is pretty wrong.

I still love california, but the one i remember which was not an overcrowded zoo. I wonder if the hispanic families who leave who have lived there for a long time might share that feeling.

+1

[BeauCharles]

Originally Posted by Gentoo

There seems to be a critical mass effect for sure. I'm in Chula Vista and in many places, the staff is so used to using Spanish that they will greet you in Spanish before realizing that most blacks probably don't speak much Spanish. Most of the time, I know what they're saying though.

Lol - got that in Salinas as well. Going through the line at a nearby K-Mart and the girl would automatically greet me in Spanish and the look up and say "Oops, sorry!". I still drive down there four times a year to visit a specialist. He's from the Midwest originally and told me during my last visit (late in the afternoon) that I was his fist appointment in English of the day. He laughed and said he's starting to think in Spanish.

[CousinMaynard]

show me a country in the western hemisphere where the majority are of spanish ancestry, and ill show you an undereducated, economically deprived and hopelessly corrupt nation. one should expect no less of a culture that identifies roman catholicism as its religion.

[majoun]

Originally Posted by Ultrarunner

We can disagree... My home is far more important to me than the amount of tax paid on something made in China or on a cell phone or new car.

Your home doesn't generate jobs unless you're renting it out. The sale of a phone or a car generates jobs.

As far as the shape of California... Governor Brown has said the future is bright and California is on target for a full recovery...

California's future is bifurcated, like Italy, with a wealthy north subsidizing a destitute south.

[DMenscha]

Originally Posted by CousinMaynard

show me a country in the western hemisphere where the majority are of spanish ancestry, and ill show you an undereducated, economically deprived and hopelessly corrupt nation. one should expect no less of a culture that identifies roman catholicism as its religion.

Wow. How about Costa Rica for starters.

[majoun]

Originally Posted by CousinMaynard

show me a country in the western hemisphere where the majority are of spanish ancestry, and ill show you an undereducated, economically deprived and hopelessly corrupt nation. one should expect no less of a culture that identifies roman catholicism as its religion.

Never heard of Uruguay and Chile I take it?

Argentina isn't exactly "undereducated", either, having a higher educational level than the US. It's a mess, but any country is capable of being a mess if it adapts destructive policies.

[Ultrarunner]

Originally Posted by BeauCharles

Lol - got that in Salinas as well. Going through the line at a nearby K-Mart and the girl would automatically greet me in Spanish and the look up and say "Oops, sorry!". I still drive down there four times a year to visit a specialist. He's from the Midwest originally and told me during my last visit (late in the afternoon) that I was his fist appointment in English of the day. He laughed and said he's starting to think in Spanish.

The MD's I work with will not hire a front office or medical assistant without conversational Spanish... it is a job requirement.

I work in the SF Bay Area.