How effextive is California schools' foreign language education compared with other states and countries? (Castro Valley: sales, movies)

[citizensadvocate]

I always wonder this question about the effectiveness of foreign language education.
Most students in CA attend about four years of foreign language education, usually Spanish.
Though compared to other states or countries how effective are CA students' foreign language education?
Since CA metro areas are Meccas of so many languages Spanish in particular. In some parts of the state Spanish tend to be even more common language than English with many Spanish language radio stations, television broadcast, businesses, restaurants, and personnel speaking Spanish in public areas. In this case one may think students regardless of their nationality/or ethnicity should have a greater comprehension of the language. When compared withsome one learning a foreign language in a monolingual homogenous area where the foreign language is hard to find in real life.
The best way to compare this is to ask how easy for a Spanish speaking only foreigner to visit CA and get help when visiting places or stores that happens to have no Hispanic personnel? Is it as easy as finding someone that can speak English on the streets of Japan or Korea.

[RosieSD]

Do you have data to support your statement that most students in California take four years of foreign language?

I ask because I'm a retired school counselor who has also worked with students in many other states as a private college counselor. I don't have hard data, but in my experience, the majority of students do not take four years of foreign language. The majority of students take only two or three years. The UC/Cal State systems only require two years of foreign language to be eligible for admission, and many students and parents opt for a third year, but only a small majority do four.

However, that is true in many other states and countries as well. Native-born U.S. Students and parents don't seem to place a lot of value on foreign language study. As a result, speaking very broadly, schools don't either; they may hire enough staff so that the majority of students can meet the minimum foreign language study requirement for college, and also don't invest in enough staff to offer languages that there isn't much interest in. I think this is probably is one of many reasons why foreign language instruction at the high school level in the U.S. isn't as successful at creating fluency as you might find in other countries. But, remember too that in other countries, people are exposed to more English language venues outside of classroom instruction, such as English movies and music, and that can help develop and strengthen skills.

All that said, California schools do a good job at English as a foreign language instruction, helping thousands of students for whom English is not their native language become fluent in English. So, in that regard at least, "foreign language education" can be said to be quite effective here, even if most students who are native English speakers may not take enough years of a second language to become fluent.

[saibot]

I have a high school aged daughter, and the previous poster is correct that most students take only two or three years of a foreign language. Her high school only offers three years of a given language, as did mine years ago.

I'm sure the larger public schools offer four years, but since four years are not a university entrance requirement, there is not a great incentive for the average student to continue studying that long.

I was by far the exception, as I was planning on a Linguistics major and took three years of Spanish AND three years of German in high school. I was highly motivated, and had, if I may say so, a good aptitude for language learning. So I can say fairly confidently that even with a good teacher and a motivated student, three (or four) years of language instruction at the high school level is not enough to create what you would call fluency. To carry on a basic conversation and ask and answer simple questions, yes. But to interact with a monolingual stranger in a work or public setting and resolve their problems, no.

This is assuming that the only contact with the language is in the classroom. If the student is immersed in an environment where s/he frequently engages in conversation and interacts with native speakers in other areas of life, then, of course, it is a different situation.

I have teenage relatives born and raised Germany who speak English very well. They are not typical because their father is American and has spoken English with them since birth. But apart from that, they say that Germans their age not only study English in school, they constantly watch English movies, listen to English music, and use English websites. In such an environment, second-language learning is far more successful than the American model of five hours a week of classroom instruction and nothing more. By the way, these teens also study French, but their French is not much better than the average American student's Spanish or French.

I'm not sure how to answer your last question. I've been to Japan twice, and apart from tourist-focused personnel in large cities like Tokyo, hardly anyone spoke more than a few words of English. This was thirty years ago, however--perhaps the average English ability of the Japanese has risen since then, but still, I would say it is considerably easier for a Spanish-speaking tourist to find a Spanish-speaker in California than it was for me to find an English-speaker in Japan, because the sheer number of bilingual Californians is so large.

[cb73]

I took Spanish from 4th grade straight through 11th grade, generally with A's and B's. When I was done, I was really good at taking tests, but couldn't hold a basic conversation. When I went to continue Spanish in community college, the teacher explained all the ways "to earn points" (points=grade) and there was little emphasis on actual fluency or even competence.

I don't know how that compares to other areas, but I'm not impressed with "school" language classes in California--or maybe it's just my area.

As far as Spanish-only visitors--there are so many native Spanish speakers in the state, I'm trying to think of a situation where no translators would be available. I'd assume they'd work it out like all tourists everywhere--phrase book, sign language, lots of pointing. I saw a sales clerk make a huge sale to a group of tourists without a word being understood on either side.

[Hemlock140]

It's not a state thing, but depends on the district, their budget, School Board priorities, and other factors. I had Spanish in 4th grade thru 8th in Lafayette, then again in high school. My daughter took Japanese in Middle Schhol in Castro Valley, now they only offer Spanish, as part of a class in "cultural awareness."

[marcopolo666]

I took Spanish in 'junior high' (7th & 8th grade) in CA, and continued for 3 years in high school, getting A's. My Spanish was always horrible - couldn't have a conversation or even use it for travel (vocabulary problem). (Well, although 2 weeks of running through a 'Spanish for travelers' audio class from the library fixed that for my 2nd trip.) I speak fluent French, passable Italian, and my Spanish still sucks whale dong. I didn't take French or Italian in high school (and in fact never took any classes in Italian - I learned on my own).

Language classes in Canada & the U.K. for those under-18 pretty much suck as well (I know several people from Canada who can't speak French, after having had classes for 6-8 years, and they say it's a common problem there). I travelled to the U.K. for business and never met anybody (all college-educated) who could say much more than 'hello' in any other language.

[manhattangirl]

Originally Posted by marcopolo666

I took Spanish in 'junior high' (7th & 8th grade) in CA, and continued for 3 years in high school, getting A's. My Spanish was always horrible - couldn't have a conversation or even use it for travel (vocabulary problem). (Well, although 2 weeks of running through a 'Spanish for travelers' audio class from the library fixed that for my 2nd trip.) I speak fluent French, passable Italian, and my Spanish still sucks whale dong. I didn't take French or Italian in high school (and in fact never took any classes in Italian - I learned on my own).

Language classes in Canada & the U.K. for those under-18 pretty much suck as well (I know several people from Canada who can't speak French, after having had classes for 6-8 years, and they say it's a common problem there). I travelled to the U.K. for business and never met anybody (all college-educated) who could say much more than 'hello' in any other language.

Yes. The US language education sucks everywhere except in selected schools.
In Canada, Ottawa does an excellent job of bilingual education but the other areas are almost as bad as we are.

There are countries that teach foreign languages well- the Dutch and the Scandinavians come to mind- but in general, it is not a priority.

[BicoastalAnn]

I took French but my high school offered Spanish and Korean as well. I hear Mandarin is increasingly being added to schools but I heard it from word of mouth so don't have any data to back that up. Compared to other states I don't know how California fares but my friends who went to the top tier public high schools in New York all took Latin.

[saibot]

I feel the need to add the fact that all native English-speakers have much less motivation to learn a second language fluently than do speakers of most other languages, owing to the overwhelming presence of English as an international language.

[cb73]

Originally Posted by saibot

I feel the need to add the fact that all native English-speakers have much less motivation to learn a second language fluently than do speakers of most other languages, owing to the overwhelming presence of English as an international language.

While that may be true for many, I belong to a worldwide language group, and the U.S. members are totally motivated to learn languages--and generally know that it won't happen in a U.S. public school.