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When I went to school back in the sixties and seventies there seemed to be a general bad attitude toward teachers and the school system among chicanos.
There were many reasons for this, one would be past injustices and bad treatment from authorities but there was a lot more to it. One issue I think is that among Mexicans there is more likely to be an attitude that advancing farther than your parents is disrespectful to them in some way, at least this is what I think.
Also I have read posts on other boards where chicanos that have gone through college and gotten good jobs talk about the unique barriers they faced and family expectations were a huge problem.
They talked about how their relatives would criticize them for being eighteen and still in school ( I had two jobs and two kids when I was your age, grow up!) and the brother or uncle that would say "you think you're better than me because you went to college man!!?? you aint better than me maaan!!". This was especially felt by young women as latino culture can be quite patriarchal about women being in higher education.
Also there is a attitude among some of the activist community that those that do well in the educational system and get good regular jobs are "trying to act white", many activists are dependent for their livelihood on there being a permanent victim of society mindset among latino youth which is not constructive to their advancement.
Fortunately much of this is deceasing, more liberal attitudes about women's place in society is part of the modern world and most of the people who moved here reject the activist agenda as they moved here to work and do the best they can for their families.
My own empirical observational experience suggests that for Latino-Mexican in particular-men are in for harder times ahead, not better. This is mainly due to what appears to be their hard wired ingrained mindset and culture colliding head on with reality, which suggests if not dictates a very different mindset.
MOST of them seem to have really big egos. Particularly when it comes to gender roles. The prevailing attitude in that culture seems to be something along the lines of "they are the man....the woman is there to serve him hand and foot, cook for him, and give him sex at will, raising the kids is the mothers job", etc. But the reciprocal obligations-such as providing a stable, decent income, housing, general material needs etc, is largely optional. In other words, they seem to expect to take, but not give; and that they are to be deified solely, entirely, and because of their gender without having to earn it or give back anything. And in America, that just aint gonna fly. Especially among the existing "Americanized" women. Including their own counterparts as they assimilate.
Unlike many other cultures, where the family lines are largely closed-loop and are clearly defined, no such delineation exists with them; any random person in a Mexican family almost certainly has an untold number of half siblings where both parents have multiple children from multiple partners (again this seems to be more common among the men than the women). Absent that basic fundamental element of stability, they can't possibly expect to stay afloat-much less succeed when their priorities are out of whack. It's almost the perfect inverse of typical Asian culture. After all "study like a Mexican and party like a Japanese" are two phrases that no one has ever said.
I realize that the above does exist in varying degrees in pretty much all cultures and likewise there are many Latin/Mexican men who do not fit this profile either. But it does seem to be more the norm than the exception. It's germane to the discussion because it does correlate directly to work ethic, level of responsibility, and so forth which will make or break your overall quality of life.
The Mexican-Americans in my area seem to be doing just fine,but like I said previously California is a huge state,so it just varies from region to region.
Quote:
Originally Posted by homenj
Thanks for the replies but I notice a lot of you have mentioned illegals. I am not really about them since it makes sense for low skilled undocumented immigrants to work in these jobs. I am talking about second, third, fourth, and beyond generation Mexican Americans who have been here for generations but still remain in the working class and don't graduate from college. I was reading that only about 13% of all US born Mexican Americans over the age of 25 graduate from college. I figure this percentage is the same in California but I don't really know. This is upsetting to read that only a small percentage of American Born Mexicans graduate and this statistic is lower than for other ethnic American even lower than some Latino groups. I don't know why this is. I don't know if it is the history of Mexicans being seen as intellectually inferior or what.
When I went to school back in the sixties and seventies there seemed to be a general bad attitude toward teachers and the school system among chicanos.
There were many reasons for this, one would be past injustices and bad treatment from authorities but there was a lot more to it. One issue I think is that among Mexicans there is more likely to be an attitude that advancing farther than your parents is disrespectful to them in some way, at least this is what I think.
Also I have read posts on other boards where chicanos that have gone through college and gotten good jobs talk about the unique barriers they faced and family expectations were a huge problem.
They talked about how their relatives would criticize them for being eighteen and still in school ( I had two jobs and two kids when I was your age, grow up!) and the brother or uncle that would say "you think you're better than me because you went to college man!!?? you aint better than me maaan!!". This was especially felt by young women as latino culture can be quite patriarchal about women being in higher education.
Also there is a attitude among some of the activist community that those that do well in the educational system and get good regular jobs are "trying to act white", many activists are dependent for their livelihood on there being a permanent victim of society mindset among latino youth which is not constructive to their advancement.
Fortunately much of this is deceasing, more liberal attitudes about women's place in society is part of the modern world and most of the people who moved here reject the activist agenda as they moved here to work and do the best they can for their families.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Des-Lab
My own empirical observational experience suggests that for Latino-Mexican in particular-men are in for harder times ahead, not better. This is mainly due to what appears to be their hard wired ingrained mindset and culture colliding head on with reality, which suggests if not dictates a very different mindset.
MOST of them seem to have really big egos. Particularly when it comes to gender roles. The prevailing attitude in that culture seems to be something along the lines of "they are the man....the woman is there to serve him hand and foot, cook for him, and give him sex at will, raising the kids is the mothers job", etc. But the reciprocal obligations-such as providing a stable, decent income, housing, general material needs etc, is largely optional. In other words, they seem to expect to take, but not give; and that they are to be deified solely, entirely, and because of their gender without having to earn it or give back anything. And in America, that just aint gonna fly. Especially among the existing "Americanized" women. Including their own counterparts as they assimilate.
Unlike many other cultures, where the family lines are largely closed-loop and are clearly defined, no such delineation exists with them; any random person in a Mexican family almost certainly has an untold number of half siblings where both parents have multiple children from multiple partners (again this seems to be more common among the men than the women). Absent that basic fundamental element of stability, they can't possibly expect to stay afloat-much less succeed when their priorities are out of whack. It's almost the perfect inverse of typical Asian culture. After all "study like a Mexican and party like a Japanese" are two phrases that no one has ever said.
I realize that the above does exist in varying degrees in pretty much all cultures and likewise there are many Latin/Mexican men who do not fit this profile either. But it does seem to be more the norm than the exception. It's germane to the discussion because it does correlate directly to work ethic, level of responsibility, and so forth which will make or break your overall quality of life.
Thank you both for great insights into the Hispanic cultures that those of us on the outside do not have.
Some of these cultural issues subsides with time as the 2nd & 3rd generation of Latinos/ Latinas become "Americanized" and receive higher education in this country and assimilated into our society. Unfortunately as we continue to have large immigrants, legal of illegal, from Mexico, Central & South America, there will continue to fill the role of lower skills labor needs and some of these mentally will continue.
What you will observe is, those higher skilled Hispanic will move away from the original immigrant neighborhoods and moved into more affluent suburbs as we've seen in other immigrants, i.e., Italians/ Germans/ Jews in the East Coast & Asians in the West.
Location: Formerly Pleasanton Ca, now in Marietta Ga
10,351 posts, read 8,572,211 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by homenj
Thanks for the replies but I notice a lot of you have mentioned illegals. I am not really about them since it makes sense for low skilled undocumented immigrants to work in these jobs. I am talking about second, third, fourth, and beyond generation Mexican Americans who have been here for generations but still remain in the working class and don't graduate from college. I was reading that only about 13% of all US born Mexican Americans over the age of 25 graduate from college. I figure this percentage is the same in California but I don't really know. This is upsetting to read that only a small percentage of American Born Mexicans graduate and this statistic is lower than for other ethnic American even lower than some Latino groups. I don't know why this is. I don't know if it is the history of Mexicans being seen as intellectually inferior or what.
It sounds like you are saying the system discriminates against Mexicans without actually coming out and saying it.
Here in Ca there are probably a higher percentage of illegals or those that have newly relocated. Honestly the mexicans have pushed the whites out of the lower paying jobs. When I was younger fast food places mostly hired high school kids that worked part time until they went off to college to be replaced by the same. If you go into a fast food place in Ca it's 90% hispanic employees working full time.
Those people are less skilled and need an income to live so they are willing to work these jobs full time. Now if you are working full time and maybe a 2nd job to get by and raising a family, you don't have time to go to college.
I have a friend that is a math teacher in high school and he pretty much said the asians and indians kick butt. The whites range from doing well to poor. The blacks and hispanics do the worse.
It's not that they are dumber, its the effort they put forth. Many don't care and he says he has to hold the entire class back because of the poor performing students. Many of them talk back to him, and are disruptive and tell him they will get a job as a garbageman or something and make more money than him.
It's not intellectual inferiority, it's values, priority and drive. Asians and Indians are pushed by parents to excel. Many hispanics may not have time to push or watch over their kids because they are working to survive.
I went to Southern California and I liked it. It was scenic and different from the Northeast.
Great.
Quote:
Originally Posted by homenj
However what I found unsettling was the ethnic divide between whites and Latinos in terms of social stratification. You could see how in downtown Los Angeles most of the white collar workers are white. However most of the those working in the menial jobs are Mexicans I wonder why this is so.
Illegal immigrant Mexicans will work menial jobs. Mexican-Americans of successive generations will work menial jobs if that's all they can find or that they are qualified for, but they typically move up in the economy. Poor whites are virtually unheard of in LA. They either live out on the distant fringes (I'm talking 75-100 miles away), or they have money, in general. Southern Californians are always surprised when they see white people at the counter at Wendy's out in flyover country, because in Southern California, that simply does not exist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by homenj
I learned that in the past, Mexican students were seen as intellectually inferior to whites. While white schools were teaching students chemistry and geometry, Mexican schools were just training students to do menial jobs. Sal Castro, a Mexican American activist, even saw students building a coffin in a Mexican school. Students in Mexican schools couldn’t even go to bathrooms during lunch breaks and were punished for speaking Spanish. Even though things have changed and schools have improved their mindset on Latinos and are more encouraging of Latinos, I guess this legacy still exists which is probably why you see many but certainly not all Mexican Americans still working in menial jobs and not going onto college. It is a shock because coming from New Jersey, you have a mix of races working in the menial jobs, whites, blacks, Asians, and Hispanics. But when I was in Southern California I saw those jobs worked almost exclusively by Latinos and I assume most of them are Mexicans. It is a shame because I saw that the Mexicans there were hardworking and not stupid.
I don't know what the heck you're talking about here. So Cal is 50%+ Latino. Yes, the Latino working class is big. Again with the no poor whites thing. Also, many Latinos come from poor families, and even some of the ones who don't come from poor families, still go directly into the workforce to support themselves/families. College is a distant thought reserved for upper middle class and above (going to college was nary a thought for myself), this is the reality of MANY Southern Californians of all classes/backgrounds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by homenj
A lot of people say Mexicans will be the new Italians or the Irish. I see the Mexicans, at least in California, becoming more like the blacks. Mexicans face environmental justice issues as well as police brutality like blacks do, even though many police officers in Southern California are Latinos. It seems that Mexicans in California, like African Americans throughout the country, have been here for generations but the situation has not improved much for a lot of them.
My Latino side of the family is well-off, and thriving in Southern CA. I left CA and am stacking my own cash. I don't care what Mexicans, California, or history have to say about it.
It sounds like you are saying the system discriminates against Mexicans without actually coming out and saying it.
Here in Ca there are probably a higher percentage of illegals or those that have newly relocated. Honestly the mexicans have pushed the whites out of the lower paying jobs. When I was younger fast food places mostly hired high school kids that worked part time until they went off to college to be replaced by the same. If you go into a fast food place in Ca it's 90% hispanic employees working full time.
Those people are less skilled and need an income to live so they are willing to work these jobs full time. Now if you are working full time and maybe a 2nd job to get by and raising a family, you don't have time to go to college.
I have a friend that is a math teacher in high school and he pretty much said the asians and indians kick butt. The whites range from doing well to poor. The blacks and hispanics do the worse.
It's not that they are dumber, its the effort they put forth. Many don't care and he says he has to hold the entire class back because of the poor performing students. Many of them talk back to him, and are disruptive and tell him they will get a job as a garbageman or something and make more money than him.
It's not intellectual inferiority, it's values, priority and drive. Asians and Indians are pushed by parents to excel. Many hispanics may not have time to push or watch over their kids because they are working to survive.
To be honest, a lot of the problem comes from poor parenting. I've seen it time and time again. It takes a generation or two to finally break away.
Also, there is nothing wrong with unskilled/semi-skilled workers. They are the salt of the earth. Who is going to do all the construction on the streets, fix broken hydrants and main breaks, drive the buses so all the people can get to work?
The snobbery and ignorance is unbelievable and no, just because someone gets a liberal arts degree doesn't automatically mean they are more intelligent than a person who didn't go to college.
P.S, I was at a restaurant and some lady was ranting and raving how her son got a job at some firm in O.C. He was making big money, buying a house with his wife, etc. Then she made a joke about him not being a "plumber" and laughing her butt off.
I saw a few white men looking over at her because they were offended by her statements. Plumbers make good money, especially if you have your own business. Just to snake a drain, they charge $70-$100. Not a bad days work to snake only 3 drains a day "less than an hours work" at a minimum.
Last edited by behindthescreen; 01-02-2017 at 04:36 PM..
It seems a lot of you say that culture has a lot to do with it. I think this is true. From what I hear, I think it is common among Mexicans to have an attitude of "why are you going to college when you could just be working." Many do come from working class backgrounds so I understand they need to think about work before college to support themselves.
I think it is a bit different in the Northeast though among Latinos. I feel Latinos here see education more positively here. There are a lot of Dominicans and South Americans and these groups tend to put more of an emphasis on education. I remember a Peruvian telling me his mom said that he should go to college because nobody can take a college education away from you. No doubt there is a large Latino working class and we do have a Latino underclass here too. But I feel a lot of Latinos in the Northeast know how important a college education is here. You don't really hear too many Latinos here asking their children why they are going to school when they could just be working. The Latino parents I have met tend to be supportive when their children want to go on to college. I don't know it is a bit different here. I read that half of all US Born Peruvians and about 21 or 35% of all US Born Dominicans have a college degree while only about 13% of all Mexicans have one but I don't think Mexicans are stupider. It probably has to do with how these cultures view education differently. Also Peruvians tend to better prepared than Mexicans to this country since it is harder to come here. Peru is farther away from the US than Mexico is. We may not usually get the elites from Peru to the Northeast but we don't usually don't get the poor poor Peruvians either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar
Great.
Illegal immigrant Mexicans will work menial jobs. Mexican-Americans of successive generations will work menial jobs if that's all they can find or that they are qualified for, but they typically move up in the economy. Poor whites are virtually unheard of in LA. They either live out on the distant fringes (I'm talking 75-100 miles away), or they have money, in general. Southern Californians are always surprised when they see white people at the counter at Wendy's out in flyover country, because in Southern California, that simply does not exist.
I don't know what the heck you're talking about here. So Cal is 50%+ Latino. Yes, the Latino working class is big. Again with the no poor whites thing. Also, many Latinos come from poor families, and even some of the ones who don't come from poor families, still go directly into the workforce to support themselves/families. College is a distant thought reserved for upper middle class and above (going to college was nary a thought for myself), this is the reality of MANY Southern Californians of all classes/backgrounds.
My Latino side of the family is well-off, and thriving in Southern CA. I left CA and am stacking my own cash. I don't care what Mexicans, California, or history have to say about it.
I am glad to hear your Latino side of the family is doing well. However that doesn't change the situation for all Latinos. An African American can be successful but that doesn't change the fact that many in his community are facing poverty, environmental injustice, and police brutality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by behindthescreen
To be honest, a lot of the problem comes from poor parenting. I've seen it time and time again. It takes a generation or two to finally break away.
Also, there is nothing wrong with unskilled/semi-skilled workers. They are the salt of the earth. Who is going to do all the construction on the streets, fix broken hydrants and main breaks, drive the buses so all the people can get to work?
The snobbery and ignorance is unbelievable and no, just because someone gets a liberal arts degree doesn't automatically mean they are more intelligent than a person who didn't go to college.
P.S, I was at a restaurant and some lady was ranting and raving how her son got a job at some firm in O.C. He was making big money, buying a house with his wife, etc. Then she made a joke about him not being a "plumber" and laughing her butt off.
I saw a few white men looking over at her because they were offended by her statements. Plumbers make good money, especially if you have your own business. Just to snake a drain, they charge $70-$100. Not a bad days work to snake only 3 drains a day "less than an hours work" at a minimum.
I don't look down on those without college degree. But when the college graduation rate for one group is significantly lower than the national average then there is a problem. It doesn't mean we should get rid of blue collar workers. We need them and some make good money. But when such a small percentage of Mexicans graduate from college, this means some of these students are not realizing their full potential, whether it is on the individual, or if cultural or social structural factors come into play.
I am glad to hear your Latino side of the family is doing well. However that doesn't change the situation for all Latinos. An African American can be successful but that doesn't change the fact that many in his community are facing poverty, environmental injustice, and police brutality.
We don't need to take responsibility for what you imply is happening to "the community". They can get out just as well as we did. Hard work, education, upward mobility, relocation. Three, four generations in, we barely acknowledge our Mexicanness anymore.
Many first-generation Mexicans believe speaking English is the meal ticket to success. I had so many cooks and busboys (I worked in a restaurant) back in my late teens giving me a hard time for not doing more with my life at that age, simply because I spoke English. I took everything that this country offers for granted, because I was American, as many of us do. Their main priority is getting their kids into school so they can learn English and get an education. I would imagine this sentiment is held by many working-class immigrant groups.
Last edited by Count David; 01-03-2017 at 06:20 AM..
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