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I asked for intelligent feedback.. Not rant like responses typical of threads here. I analyzed the response sentence by sentence because, as you can tell, the response was a baseless rant that went on to compare CA to FL and in may ways misstated the facts. Where did I state the person's response was idiotic? May I please ask you to back up your statement? I made a smart remark on grammar/brilliance due to the responding person's smart remark.
Again, it seems people like to rant here and diverge more than anything. Please dont turn this thread into that. If you have intelligent feedback to post then post it. And if you are going to accuse someone of something, feel free to do as I did and source/quote them.
What exactly do you call : UB50's post which is full of non-factual inaccurate cheap shots at FL vs. CA? How else do I respond to such a post w/o addressing the fallacies line by line and when necessary putting cheap shots in their respective place and in perspective? is it better to ignore it and have someone believe UB50's relative comparisons are actually valid? But by all means, scan over every line in someone's post... Don't add anything to the discussion and make some random unfounded attack.
*Back on topic
My dear.. what you think is mindless ranting is someone's OPINION. Whether you like it or not (or whether it reaches your "intellectual level" or not)
Respect that. Or don't ask for it.
When you don't respect that, anything you have to say falls on deaf ears. Have fun learning that. I'd have thought that by your age (or your intelligence level,the one you feel so compelled to constantly tell people you have achieved) you'd have learned that basic fact of life by now. Hmmm.)
California is the 8th Largest economy in the world, and if it were it's own country it could solve it's problem by printing money. I'd sooner live in California than about 45 of the other states
CA is the 8th largest economy in the world that has a bad credit rating and where it ranks in the world currently might soon change. CA is a wonderful state and I don't think that is the issue. It is heading in the wrong direction and I am hoping we can pull it together to keep it the Golden State.
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Originally Posted by yeahthatguy
I disagree. Ft. Lauderdale has a notable presence of : " musuems, the music, the opera, the plays, the arts in general". I have experienced a good number of them both here and in FL and the major difference is the Eastern (asian) influence found in a lot of CA's 'culture'.
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Originally Posted by UB50
I live in Los Angeles and I want you to know that Ft. Lauderdale has nothing similar to what is available in LA. The whole state of Florida has no institution comparable to the Getty, LACMA, or the Huntington Library.
Ft. Lauderdale compared to LA regarding "music, opera, plays and arts in general"? That's really laughable.
I have visited L.A and understand fully that Ft.Lauderdale and L.A don't compare.. I don't think I ever did that above. I however stated, having lived in SoFLa for a majority of my life and actually gone to Ft.Lauderdale for more than my fill of musuems/arts/opera/etc that there is a good presence of it. And Art/musuems/zomg amazing stuff can easily be transplated in location X,Y,Z just as it was in California. Again, this state holds no ownership of all things artistic/cool. We can go on and on measuring what this state has vs. another. I am neutral and hold no love for either state so I can easily go tick for tack. Again, i didn't mean for this thread to be this. Thanks for your feedback
My dear.. what you think is mindless ranting is someone's OPINION. Whether you like it or not (or whether it reaches your "intellectual level" or not)
Respect that. Or don't ask for it.
When you don't respect that, anything you have to say falls on deaf ears. Have fun learning that. I'd have thought that by your age (or your intelligence level,the one you feel so compelled to constantly tell people you have achieved) you'd have learned that basic fact of life by now. Hmmm.)
Carry on.
An unfounded opinion riddled w/ fallacies and false dichotomies and is not the same as a founded open opinion. So yes : someone's (false) microscopic comparison of one state to another when that was not the intent of the thread will be called out as such. Sorry for trying to keep things on topic unlike the 6 pages of tick for tack rants that are common place here. I love california because (insert useless rant) vs. I hate california because (insert useless rant)..
As you can see, I respected and thanked those who made intelligent and thoughtful posts regardless of which side they were on. I don't have to respect someones rant full of fallacies and it is better to call it out as such then to sit by and have someone spread nonsense.
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Originally Posted by canibeyou
When you don't respect that, anything you have to say falls on deaf ears. Have fun learning that. I'd have thought that by your age (or your intelligence level,the one you feel so compelled to constantly tell people you have achieved) you'd have learned that basic fact of life by now. Hmmm.)
Carry on.
I stated my background in order to allow for others to understand/identify possible biased views I may have that I did not. In order to allow for others to characterize my perspective... I didn't do it to put myself up on a platform... Sorry if I offended you. The basic fact I have learned about this country and forum in general is that a lot of people have baseless opinions that are many times wrong and aren't logic/rational/neutral in weighing things. Those that dare call these people out are marked as being angry/upset/bullies/condescending. It's a discussion, If I go on ranting about how X state is soo much better than Y state and rattle off 50 fallacies I hope someone has enough time/balls to quote me and hang me out to dry... So fallacies don't spread... That is how you end up getting to the truth you know... Meanwhile such attitudes gain traction and persist.. Ignorance/stupidity spread and we end up in our present circumstances... So excuse me for caring a bit more and not sitting by while someone spreads fallacies. *As you were
I have visited L.A and understand fully that Ft.Lauderdale and L.A don't compare.. I don't think I ever did that above. I however stated, having lived in SoFLa for a majority of my life and actually gone to Ft.Lauderdale for more than my fill of musuems/arts/opera/etc that there is a good presence of it. And Art/musuems/zomg amazing stuff can easily be transplated in location X,Y,Z just as it was in California. Again, this state holds no ownership of all things artistic/cool. We can go on and on measuring what this state has vs. another. I am neutral and hold no love for either state so I can easily go tick for tack. Again, i didn't mean for this thread to be this. Thanks for your feedback
In your initial post, you spoke of "culture." I explained what I believe "culture" is (not just people but the arts).
This is not a rant, going "tick for tack" (as you called it) or "tit for tat" as it is usually referred to.
California has the culture I desire. Perhaps these things hold no charm for you but I happen to love them and I would never trade this state for one offering me a cheaper McMansion.
You have your own values and you need to follow your own heart -- but don't try to tell others that their values are nonsense.
Again, this is not a rant. You asked for opinions and I am giving you mine. If you didn't want opinions, you shouldn't have asked for them.
To the OP thank you for your post and being brave enough to post your sentiments. I LOVE CA but can't stand the cost to live here. It is a struggle and both my husband and I make plenty of money, we can live off of one person's income but we would not be comfortable.
Good Day, thank you for your response bayarea-girl. Yes, I can't source #'s or percentages but understand from those I have come in contact w/ that they had to make this move once they expanded their family, maybe wanted wife to work at home w/ the kids, and have a financial cushion. It is indeed hard for the majority to get by here on a single income household w/ a family while having a form of a financial cushion. I don't think this was apparent to many until the economic downturn not only exposed how much the state govt. was living pay check to pay check but also how soo many families (not soo much living lavishly) were too... To be fair though, this is representative of the country at large and varies in magnitude form state to state for various reasons.
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Originally Posted by bayarea-girl
You point out the obvious to me and it is often times not what people want to hear on these threads.
Indeed and it not that I express this out of hate/frustration/{insert negative emotional state}. I see problems and I identify them.. When I feel there are too many, I sum up the (+)/(-), do some critical thinking and make a decision. But yes, people who point out problems are often . People prefer to sometimes be happy in (ignorance is bliss) until things blow up and then they make comments like : who could have seen this coming and resort to all sorts of panicky 'solutions' that don't get at resolving the real problem that they never thought to honestly identify...
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Originally Posted by bayarea-girl
Why not communicate the problem without being deemed anti-California?
Emotions Bayarea-girl... They cloud logic and many often can't identify that they are speaking out of emotion...
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Originally Posted by bayarea-girl
Why aren't people asking the questions like what are we paying for and are we getting our money's worth? They are very good questions.
Again, I can't speak in terms of quantities but from what I have observed via direct lengthy conversations it is due to a handful of these things :
* I can't make anything change anyway
* I am from country x,y,z and these taxes are nothing .. Stop complaining (even if you are getting ripped off.. it is worse in other places)
* I would rather focus on something I can control like working 4 more hours a day.. Hopefully i will get a bonus .. Even if most of it is taken away in taxes.. At least I get some more $$$. -> proceed to working 4-5 more hours a day and having no time to participate/vote in the very things that shape the state/country you live in... By reducing income tax by 1-2%/sales tax by 1-2% you are effectively getting a 2-4% raise.. People just don't see things this way.
* I don't pay the bulk of taxes (I don't make much and my tax burden is actually fine w/ me.. so go ahead, tax the middle/upper class more .. I like my free parks, roads, subsidized electric bill, subsidized living that results in higher costs for others
* What? You mean there are places where the taxes aren't this high?
* You have to pay to live in a wonderful place like CA... This is how things always have been (not correct) and always will be (not correct).
* Where else do you find amazing culture/blah blah blah like this? ... (have you traveled the world/50 states? ) No but I sure love love love the deal I am getting.
Hmmm, I noticed a trend after many convos.
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Originally Posted by bayarea-girl
Forget the weather, culture, beach for a moment, if you have no savings for a rainy day (and from the looks of it we are about to get drenched) because you are spending most of your money just to live here what are you going to do when you loose your job? Will you be able to survive off of unemployment and the sunshine? Will you move in with a bunch of people or your parents to have the CA dream/scarfice?
Again, from the conversations I have asked, many people don't ask themselves this ?. To them, they are bright and hard working.. Jobs present in CA will always be here... The mecca of x,y,z that CA holds in city A,B,C will always be here... Things don't change over time... Except.. when they do .. and at that point I will just scream ZOMG who could have seen it coming and beg for a bailout. Ohhhh' the humanity.
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Originally Posted by bayarea-girl
Times are changing people and you may not be affected right now but you might be sooner or later and the love for the weather and all that stuff will wear off at some point when you can't pay your bills and the government asks you for more money to support bad habits and or ideas.
I was very happy to have participated in the May special election to vote down even more taxation.. It was amazing w/ all the hikes and the down turn that so little people showed but this gets back to people not really caring in the first place and loving the 'value'. I still had to re-run the #'s and assess the risk of settling here in what I foresee is an upcoming exodus of industry.. and what I found propelled me to make my decision.. When the CEO of one of the top tech companies in the valley indicates that : We are a global company and globally we have sought out talent in continuing low cost centers to pass the benefit on to our customers... Going forward we must consider to do the same domestically in the U.S... When I hear that and that they are freezing hiring at their headquarters in the valley and seeking expansion in other states.. Something tends to go off in my head... I felt the same way myself after a year here but hearing a CEO conclude on the same publicly..yup, time to start making an exit plan.
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Originally Posted by bayarea-girl
It makes me really nervous to think that if something happens to both my job and that of my husband's that it will be impossible to live here. Getting a job in today's market may not be very easy and the cost of living makes me very nervous.
This is very good you feel this way.. It is a feeling brought about by the intelligent assessment of ongoing risks given where CA is at.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bayarea-girl
Thankfully we have saved our money but not too many people have a back up plan because it was impossible to save money in order to keep up with their bills to live in this great state. Too many people I know have lost their jobs, can barely afford their mortgages, and have families. We are heading into scary times and I hope that I am wrong but I take money over sunshine and the beach because at the end of the day I have others that are dependent upon me and I'm not trying to work myself into an early grave. Come on CA let's get it together!
Indeed. Thank you for your response and the echoing of points that should be clear to many. I really do deep down wish this state the best. While I was here, I actively contacted state senators, voted on provisions to stop out of control spending and tried to make a diff. I sadly just came to the conclusion that the writing is on the wall both from an economic/market perspective and do to the ongoing commentary from CEOs/business leaders.
In your initial post, you spoke of "culture." I explained what I believe "culture" is (not just people but the arts).
This is not a rant, going "tick for tack" (as you called it) or "tit for tat" as it is usually referred to.
. I think we all understand what culture is. Was that not my reply?
I didn't say this portion was a rant. What was a rant was your comparisons of FL to CA that was full of fallacies and false dichotomies. Correct me if I am wrong, but is this not what I pointed out line by line? And the point was not to say FL was better than CA. That's what all of the useless other threads attempted for which there never will be aggreance and for which will always digress into garbage. I addressed your fallacies line by line for what they were and easily threw back at you what you dished out (rants).
Quote:
Originally Posted by UB50
California has the culture I desire.
. I respect that and can respect how you feel it is a 'value' to you. Like w/ others I have responded to. I can respect a person's varied opinion and value system. What I can't respect is someone's rant full of fallacies...
Quote:
Originally Posted by UB50
Perhaps these things hold no charm for you but I happen to love them and I would never trade this state for one offering me a cheaper McMansion.
. Why go there? was that necessary? Again, another false dichotomy.. If you don't chose CA, you are stuck choosing a culture dead state w/ a cheap mcMansion... Really ? . Are you being serious?
Quote:
Originally Posted by UB50
You have your own values and you need to follow your own heart -- but don't try to tell others that their values are nonsense.
I never did and actually gave to people w/ varied opinions who didn't diverge into useless rants of X state vs. Y state. What I said was nonsense was your fallacy riddled rant comparing FL to CA. I hope this is clear and is the reason i replied 'line by line'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by UB50
Again, this is not a rant. You asked for opinions and I am giving you mine. If you didn't want opinions, you shouldn't have asked for them.
I did not attack any of your valid points. If I did.. Point it out and correct me if I am wrong. I attacked your rant style attack of FL vs. CA which was full of fallacies and I pointed them out one by one. I do respect and value your opinion and decision to chose CA over another state. I can do w/o the false dichotomies and personal attacks .. You know... just so we can stay on topic
Yet you continue to complain and go on and on about how horrible this state has become, how all the true native white, game hunting, gun totin', non- college educated Californians don't exist anymore because of all of the non-white immigrants and educated "elitists" invading your neighborhood. I don't EVER remember people like that being a majority in the Bay Area..or around any major city.
I got your goat as usual. What about us mixed race (Asian, Caucasian, Black) game hunting, gun toting natives with Advanced Degrees who manage major high tech companies? If you never met anyone like me, then you either grew up in a highly non diverse enclave, or are very young (e.g. under 30). As a Gen X type myself (born in the 60s) I had the pleasure of still being able to experience the old California ratcheer in the Bay Area burbs. Also, I did not say I was part of some majority, by the late 60s (e.g. my first memories) a lot of social damage had already been done. Most of the elitists I refer to are actually white people from the NE US.
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(But laughably you pride yourself on being "salt of the earth" while others are not)
You need to read more carefully and avoid being overwhelmed by anger when you are doing it. I am from a very bourgeois middle to lower middle class background. If that is not salt of the earth I don't know what is. I am the California version of those "clinging to Bibles and guns" that Obama spoke of at that gala event at the Getty place.
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Yeah, you're different than everyone else..special because you think your thoughts are superior..lol.
I render no value judgment about my thoughts. They are what they are.
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You're not "salt of the Earth ". You are nothing but a bigoted, bitter, old man from all that I've gathered from all of your unhelpful rants you post.
Not sure what you mean by bigoted. I judge people based on the content of their character. I seem to recall a certain Dr. King having something to say about that. And about being old ... OK ... I confess ... I am a Gen Xer. I guess that's old to some.
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So go already.. Why spend so much of your time just talking about it. You most definitely would be happier elsewhere (even Modoc Co) since you seem so consumed by the demise of our state by liberals (or the majority of people that don't agree w/ you and your conservative viewpoints).
NFW. This is my home. My family and social circle are here. For now, my life is here. How dare you try to pressure me to leave. In fact, that is sort of a type of ethnic cleansing. Interesting ... the impulses of Fabians with totalitarian leanings. Should I be sent to a camp? Is that not the next step down the slippery slope, after steps like being told to leave my home?
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I'm a native and Bay Arean too and I don't get you at all.
Well, maybe you should try. It would actually make you more diverse.
Please read all so we can nip this in the bud .. Your intelligent feedback is appreciated :
Good Day everyone. I am a new user here but not new to the forum.. I keep a particularly close eye on this forum because I live in California and am concerned so much so that I wanted to see what other people think about CA. I read through all 6 pages of this post regarding varied sentiment about CA and I understand everyone's points. I will get to mine shortly (please hang w/ me) and I hope to get intelligent feedback from others. First is first... A little bit about myself so my bias/perspectives can be traced if one exists...
I am a 26 year old male who grew up mostly in FL. I have my Masters in Computer Engineering from one of the top Universities in America. I have travelled the world and have spent some time in several other states (CT, NY, PA). I graduated w/ multiple offers from companies in various diff. states (MA, NY, CA, FL). I ended up choosing FL namely due to firm/factual calculations as to standard of living based on the various salaries. For instance, my salary in FL was ~$8k less than CA was willing to pay me. Further, I had friends/etc this also influenced me.. In all honesty though, when I did the math, I was like : there is no way is F*** I would go to CA w/ that compensation. Had I seen the amazing Cali movies that paint this out to be a wonderful place? Sure... But even though I was then, at the time (21), I was not wet behind the ears.... Nor was I or am I an anti-social hermit who likes working 12-14 hour weeks to be living in a shack apt built in 1980 making decisions about every purchase I make due to taxes/etc. I know how to appreciate culture, nature, diversity, night life, and festivities. I know their place and their relative value to me. So, the choice was made... I took the FL offer.. Had loads of fun... loved the nightlife.. the culture (mainly Caribbean/Spanish).. The diversity in my friends : Brazilian, Haitian, Filipino, Italian, Irish, Chinese, Cuban.... Some year and a 1/2 later I felt better career opportunities lied elsewhere and so I applied to various places and got good offers from top companies in CA... Although I knew better job opportunities lied in CA, I still did not let go of my strict desire to have adequate compensation. I was given a grand slam offer and it made sense.. So I made the move... My salary w/ bonus tops six figures so (no) I am by no means priced out of CA.
What I learned after about 2 years of living here though is I hate the taxes/cost of living. Geography, nothing compares... Diversity too... Love SF although I hate the commute from the valley.
W/ respect to people's comments... I think about this simple thing... If CA were to be uninhabited.. if it didn't have a diverse pool of people populating it.. if it didn't have the crazy taxes and Looney govt. would it hold its value comparative to other states? Sure... It's an amazing and beautiful place... However, it is ran by a total jack*** for a govt.... It's taxes are insane... Cost of living is also insane... And again, I make upwards of six figures and have an enjoyable job...
So going forward... I am looking to get out of here... because when I run the calculations.. It's simply not worth it... As a piece of land, this place is amazing and I can see people's desire to move here.. however, coupled w/ its entrance and inhabitation fee.. It just tends to not be a value for people... I think this is where EVERYONE is divided on this and threads like it.. If there were no taxes and Looney govt I am sure people would be coming here in the boatloads. I think most of the people saying they don't like CA based it on the (Value - to them). which is fair... Not that it is a horrible place... I would even agree w/ people who love this place that this is an amazing place that I would rather not part... But on costs ... It becomes a ? .. is it worth it .. and to the defectors it tends not to be. Should the people who love this place say 'to hell w/ you? leave....'.. No, not exactly because w/ them.. they take their tax revenue.. culture... jobs....ideas.. and spirit... Look at what globalization did to jobs in America.. Is it not plausible that employers in the U.S might not make a similar domestic migration when the time is right? W/ U.S unemployment reaching near 10% and a huge # of intelligent college grads who are jobless do you think that they would be picky about what geographical place they locate? What happens when a place gets a foothold like Raleigh, NC or Spots in texas in way of a tech hub? What happens when the culture and money start to build up those places to diverse hubs like... you know CA? Emotionally you can lob your attacks on defectors but ... To ignore this possibility and say to hell w/ you guys and not get at why people are leaving and try to make changes to prevent it only puts you at a loss... I mean sure, if your b/f is abuser you can stay w/ him because you love him soo much and you can call those who criticize him haters but that is not going to stop maybe your face from getting beatin in.. So ignore the complaints at your own risk. I do wish this state the best though.. it really is a beautiful place and I would really hate to see people leave in large #'s due to an out of control govt. that non of the states citizens seem to care about and make excuses for like (you have to pay to be in this beautiful place)... LOL, sure... but are you paying in to the geographical landscape or paying to sustain an out of control govt... The two are diff.
And again, I happen to make a decent wage so it's not like I am scrapping by. I have projected I can save ~$50-$60k a year after bills/taxes and having a good time. However, coming from FL it irks me when I have to pay 9.5% sales tax. It irks me when I have to pay $250 to register my car every year. It irks me that my electricity bill includes charges to pay some other dude's electricity bill. It irks me that I have to pay 9.5% income tax... and for what? Are the roads better than FL where my registration was $30? No. Is the care for the elderly better here than in FL where there is no income tax and sales tax is 6.5%? No... Do I get what I pay for ? No. And for me, I don't get emotionally attached to a state. My state.. Is my state of mind and frankly I can enjoy any place so long as I have the freedom to enjoy the fruits of my labor. There is just as much diversity, although from diff countries, in FL as there is in CA. In my opinion, a better night life.. And hey, before I left, I was renting a 2,789 sq. foot new house w/ 3 car garage.. big backyard.. granite countertops .. wine rack.. tile throughout mcMansion for less than what I pay for a freaking dorm apt. that was built in probably 1980 w/o A/C... a 2 bedroom 1 bath apt. ... I pay $1895.. to rent a mcmansion in FL it was $1650 a month. So, can I honestly say this is not a beautiful state w/ beautiful people, geography, festivities, and OMFGWTFBBQ? No....
But personally, is it worth it to me w/ my six figure salary? No... The best game plan is to live small.. live young.. don't buy anything major ... Live frugal as hell .. enjoy CA for what it is.. stash away your cash in tax havens, 401ks, annuities, wtvr you can find.. and once you have had your fill .. bounce and settle down. It's funny that I realize this now having been here for 2 years or so. I initially came here thinking the grass is greener on the other side and buying all the hype that is shown in movies about CA... I was wet behind the ears and didn't get what the guy from CA who just moved to FL was telling me as I was leaving my company.... I thought he was just being an old fuddy dud.. Well, I have seen the light as a good # of people who haven't become emotionally tied to this state have... and soon I will be leaving ... taking my fun self, my culture, my $$$ (especially that hiding in tax shelters)... my major purchases.. my intelligence.. my future wife and potential kids .. my home purchase most probably to a state that respects the hard work of its citizens.. that being either Texas or FL... no income tax and low sales tax...
Diversity is not due to Cali. It's due to the people who come here... Many people leaving expensive places like NY/CA end up going to cheaper places to raise a family.. w/ it.. they bring their diversity.. their culture... and amazing selves... It's been an excellent couple of years in CA I can't lie but it just doesn't make any sense anymore and I respect those who, beyond their emotional feelings for CA, do the #'s and make the intelligent choice...
I wish this state the best going into the future .. It just amazes me its comprised of some of the most intelligent people (in the valley).. The most innovative entrepreneurs .. Yet collectively they go to work everyday slaving like animals working 12-14 hours to pay it all out in taxes for no greater services than most other states... To pray their option arm doesn't reset on their 1,000 sq. foot $600k house... All to be in a sinking ship for which there are many other empty floating ones at sea. Yeah the geography isn't as great as CA.. but that's all CA as a piece of land has to offer.. the people in CA are found all over the world and United States... The fun, culture too.. Seek and ye will find... Life is what you make out of it and I personally just feel I want to make it in a place that makes it less hard for me to make choices I need to and want to make. Both from a lifestyle perspective and from a financial perspective. I look forward to constructive feedback.
Solution: Move.
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. People prefer to sometimes be happy in (ignorance is bliss) until things blow up 
and then they make comments like : who could have seen this coming and resort to all sorts of panicky 'solutions' that don't get at resolving the real problem that they never thought to honestly identify... 
but this gets back to people not really caring in the first place and loving the 'value'. I still had to re-run the #'s and assess the risk of settling here in what I foresee is an upcoming exodus of industry.. and what I found propelled me to make my decision.. When the CEO of one of the top tech companies in the valley indicates that : We are a global company and globally we have sought out talent in continuing low cost centers to pass the benefit on to our customers... Going forward we must consider to do the same domestically in the U.S... When I hear that and that they are freezing hiring at their headquarters in the valley and seeking expansion in other states.. Something tends to go off in my head... I felt the same way myself after a year here but hearing a CEO conclude on the same publicly..yup, time to start making an exit plan.
. I think we all understand what culture is. Was that not my reply?
