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I'm a native of CA; I'm approximately 50 years old and college educated (Bachelors degree from university in CA) and I lived in an affluent county in CA before moving to the Upper Midwest. I did not move there out of a "strong" desire to live there (though I kept an open mind 'bout it) nor for a job but for other reasons. I consider myself "middle class".
PET PEEVE:
I am getting very tired of people who are CA natives who have never lived in another state, who constantly complain about CA and believe that the "grass is always greener somewhere else"!
And, I am equally tired of really rude people from other states WHO HAVE NEVER LIVED IN CA, yet say very hateful things about it! How would they know anything about life in CA? Even if they visited CA for a short time, it does not qualify you to have a fair and honest opinion about it! Visiting a state and living there are two very different things!
Now that I have lived in a very different part of the country for almost 6 years, I can now give an accurate comparison between CA and another state, Wisconsin. Are you ready, Folks??? O.K....here 'goes.....
BUSINESS
Jobs opportunities are VERY limited in number in Wisconsin (even BEFORE economy went south); especially compared to CA. And Wisconsin has much fewer companies and small businesses, I believe even disproportionally. Also, WI's political climate make the state very "business UN-friendly". Now we all know that the state of CA and businesses of all sizes have a love-hate relationship with each other in the past several years. But CA still has an enormous amount of large and mid-size corporations and many, many small businesses that continue to thrive in the "golden state". There are still many job ops in CA with the exception being the agricultural area in central CA.
Occupations in WI do NOT vary too much, mostly "blue collar", "laborer" types of jobs with few "white collar" positions in most towns and counties; with the exception of a few suburbs near Madison, Milwaukee and Appleton.
(La Crosse and Eau Claire might have a few suburbs that have a good amount of white collar jobs, but I'm not familiar with those cities).
EXTREMELY HIGH PROPERTY TAXES IN WI (Folks, you have NO idea!!) I do know that just in the very recent past, CA has increased the property taxes (I know, I used to own a home in CA up to 2004! Prop. taxes used to be more reasonable in CA). But Wisconsin property taxes have been VERY HIGH for many decades, per my husband who's a native!! Not many people know that, about a "quiet" state like WI, now do they?!
Get this: As of this writing, A LAWYER IN WISCONSIN DOES NOT - I REPEAT - DOES NOT HAVE TO PASS THE BAR EXAM IN ORDER TO PRACTIVE LAW!! It's been that way for many decades in WI!! This is unheard of in CA (or of any other state in the U.S.)! Anyway, thus, when you need a lawyer for a problem you have in WI, you cannot assume that the Lawyer you hire is as competant a Lawyer as you want or need! You must choose your legal representative very, very carefully here in WI. Yes, there are ways to know if a Lawyer in WI is "bar certified", but I was completely STUNNED when I found this out a few years ago!! There was even a Judge in a county in the northern part of Wisconsin that not only did not pass the bar exam, but he did NOT even finish law school, Folks! THIS IS TRUE AND FACTUAL! And yet he became a Judge! Yikes!! It's all about "Who you know, and not WHAT you know", I guess. I heard about this Judge on the radio one day as I was driving in WI. The radio newscaster stated this info about that Judge because it was a part of a news story; I believe that Judge was charged with corruption of some kind (not to mentioned his lack of credentials)!
In many regions of WI, the SHOPPING is very limited! And I don't mean the lack of a Nordstroms store or a Bloomingdales either, I mean stores that sell BASIC stuff -- like FOOD! Sometimes you must drive for 20 minutes+ just to get to the nearest grocery store! (In CA, there is practically one on every corner!) Of course, this depends on where you live in WI. Personally, my small town does NOT have a grocery store so I drive 15 minutes to the nearest town to stock up. My commute is not bad compared others I've known who live in WI. By the way, I do not live in the "boonies" in a very remote area in northern area of Wisconsin; I live about 45 minutes from Milwaukee. Honestly.
SOCIAL ASPECTS:
WI has the highest alcohol DUI (or DWI) rate for the U.S. for both adult and juveniles!
Many (not all, but vast majority) of persons in this subculture (of WI) have a VERY HARD TIME ACCEPTING OUTSIDERS!! Even if you assume that if you move there and you "look" similar to the people who've settled there, you might think you would be accepted - but think again! Even a person like that would probably will be shunned (seriously, folks) for at least the first couple of years. Perhaps you might (and I mean MIGHT) get accepted in the community where you moved to, but there is no guarentee! Many outsiders I know never do feel "accepted" even if they've lived in WI for 10+ years. Suspicion runs high in WI towards newbies, even if you are friendly to them! Go figure!
I've got to say this: I have even encountered some WI natives who are just down right MEAN if you are not originally from their area! It has become disheartening at times for me and a few others I've known who have moved to WI from other parts of the country! I have even met a few WI natives who have actually recognized this "unfriendly" trait and have just casually thrown it off as blaming their ethnic roots: "That's just the way we are! We're close knit and don't like other kinds of people...!" Sad.......Need I say more?!
Many are not open to "new" ideas in general! "Change" is not a positive word in Wisconsin's vocabulary. I realize CA is extremely open to "the next big thing," be it electronics or music or whatever. That is also not always wise though. But at least Californians are willing to give new ideas a try!
In CA, there are many millions of people - both good and bad, both positive and negative, both successful and unsuccessful and young & old. But I can walk along any beach, any sidewalk or any mountain hiking trail in southern, central or northern CA; and "strangers" will almost always say "hello!" to me! The "stranger" could be of virtually any Ethnicity in the world: Asian American (whose origins are from Far East, Southeast or Asia minor or Philipino; etc.), African American, Hispanic (either middle-class type Hispanic American citizen or poor recent immigrant), White (of every kind: Northern European background, Western and Southern European background, Slavic (Eastern background), and Middle Eastern to include but not limited to: Iranian American, Arab American; etc.), South Pacific (Samoan; etc.) and the list goes on and on............
So, Californians KNOW they are NOT PERFECT and that their state is not perfect. But there are many wonderful things about California. The successful businesses and corporations, the exellent fire men who are well trained; the beautiful beaches, the COMPETANT Lawyers, the openness to new business and scientific ideas and the openness about living around all kinds of people (by the way, many "foreigners" who move to CA are very smart and successful though many are originally from 3rd World countries!); etc. etc.
I think the best thing about California is it's PEOPLE! ALL OF IT'S PEOPLE!!!! (Now don't gasp, CA critics!)
So if you think that the "grass is always greener on the other side" and if you are one of those Californians who HATE California and wish to move to a "better" and different state, you'd better really analyze why you have a bias against the state. You might really "love" and "admire" the folks who settled into other states like, say, Wisconsin (and indeed, there are SOME nice people there); but those other states (like WI) with whom you desire and admire have just as much problems in crime, drugs and alcohol problems, political corruption, teen pregnancies, low income persons of EVERY race and ethnicity; etc.
Please take those "rose colored glasses" off and get HONEST facts about other states (outside CA) before moving to them! Perhaps you'll find CA is a pretty nice place after all! Now, if you don't mind, I've got to "winterize" my windows and other parts of my house before Fall and especially before Winter comes!! Just thinking about a Wisconsin winter makes me cold! Brrrrrrrrr................
Last edited by coffeelovr; 07-21-2009 at 03:12 PM..
I'm a native of CA; I'm approximately 50 years old and college educated (Bachelors degree from university in CA) and I lived in an affluent county in CA before moving to the Upper Midwest. I did not move there out of a "strong" desire to live there (though I kept an open mind 'bout it) nor for a job but for other reasons. I consider myself "middle class".
PET PEEVE:
I am getting very tired of people who are CA natives who have never lived in another state, who constantly complain about CA and believe that the "grass is always greener somewhere else"!
And, I am equally tired of really rude people from other states WHO HAVE NEVER LIVED IN CA, yet say very hateful things about it! How would they know anything about life in CA? Even if they visited CA for a short time, it does not qualify you to have a fair and honest opinion about it! Visiting a state and living there are two very different things!
Now that I have lived in a very different part of the country for almost 6 years, I can now give an accurate comparison between CA and another state, Wisconsin. Are you ready, Folks??? O.K....here 'goes.....
BUSINESS
Jobs opportunities are VERY limited in number in Wisconsin (even BEFORE economy went south); especially compared to CA. And Wisconsin has much fewer companies and small businesses, I believe even disproportionally. Also, WI's political climate make the state very "business UN-friendly". Now we all know that the state of CA and businesses of all sizes have a love-hate relationship with each other in the past several years. But CA still has an enormous amount of large and mid-size corporations and many, many small businesses that continue to thrive in the "golden state". There are still many job ops in CA with the exception being the agricultural area in central CA.
Occupations in WI do NOT vary too much, mostly "blue collar", "laborer" types of jobs with few "white collar" positions in most towns and counties; with the exception of a few suburbs near Madison, Milwaukee and Appleton.
(La Crosse and Eau Claire might have a few suburbs that have a good amount of white collar jobs, but I'm not familiar with those cities).
EXTREMELY HIGH PROPERTY TAXES IN WI (Folks, you have NO idea!!) I do know that just in the very recent past, CA has increased the property taxes (I know, I used to own a home in CA up to 2004! Prop. taxes used to be more reasonable in CA). But Wisconsin property taxes have been VERY HIGH for many decades, per my husband who's a native!! Not many people know that, about a "quiet" state like WI, now do they?!
Get this: As of this writing, A LAWYER IN WISCONSIN DOES NOT - I REPEAT - DOES NOT HAVE TO PASS THE BAR EXAM IN ORDER TO PRACTIVE LAW!! It's been that way for many decades in WI!! This is unheard of in CA (or of any other state in the U.S.)! Anyway, thus, when you need a lawyer for a problem you have in WI, you cannot assume that the Lawyer you hire is as competant a Lawyer as you want or need! You must choose your legal representative very, very carefully here in WI. Yes, there are ways to know if a Lawyer in WI is "bar certified", but I was completely STUNNED when I found this out a few years ago!! There was even a Judge in a county in the northern part of Wisconsin that not only did not pass the bar exam, but he did NOT even finish law school, Folks! THIS IS TRUE AND FACTUAL! And yet he became a Judge! Yikes!! It's all about "Who you know, and not WHAT you know", I guess. I heard about this Judge on the radio one day as I was driving in WI. The radio newscaster stated this info about that Judge because it was a part of a news story; I believe that Judge was charged with corruption of some kind (not to mentioned his lack of credentials)!
In many regions of WI, the SHOPPING is very limited! And I don't mean the lack of a Nordstroms store or a Bloomingdales either, I mean stores that sell BASIC stuff -- like FOOD! Sometimes you must drive for 20 minutes+ just to get to the nearest grocery store! (In CA, there is practically one on every corner!) Of course, this depends on where you live in WI. Personally, my small town does NOT have a grocery store so I drive 15 minutes to the nearest town to stock up. My commute is not bad compared others I've known who live in WI. By the way, I do not live in the "boonies" in a very remote area in northern area of Wisconsin; I live about 45 minutes from Milwaukee. Honestly.
SOCIAL ASPECTS:
WI has the highest alcohol DUI (or DWI) rate for the U.S. for both adult and juveniles!
Many (not all, but vast majority) of persons in this subculture (of WI) have a VERY HARD TIME ACCEPTING OUTSIDERS!! Even if you assume that if you move there and you "look" similar to the people who've settled there, you might think you would be accepted - but think again! Even a person like that would probably will be shunned (seriously, folks) for at least the first couple of years. Perhaps you might (and I mean MIGHT) get accepted in the community where you moved to, but there is no guarentee! Many outsiders I know never do feel "accepted" even if they've lived in WI for 10+ years. Suspicion runs high in WI towards newbies, even if you are friendly to them! Go figure!
I've got to say this: I have even encountered some WI natives who are just down right MEAN if you are not originally from their area! It has become disheartening at times for me and a few others I've known who have moved to WI from other parts of the country! I have even met a few WI natives who have actually recognized this "unfriendly" trait and have just casually thrown it off as blaming their ethnic roots: "That's just the way we are! We're close knit and don't like other kinds of people...!" Sad.......Need I say more?!
Many are not open to "new" ideas in general! "Change" is not a positive word in Wisconsin's vocabulary. I realize CA is extremely open to "the next big thing," be it electronics or music or whatever. That is also not always wise though. But at least Californians are willing to give new ideas a try!
In CA, there are many millions of people - both good and bad, both positive and negative, both successful and unsuccessful and young & old. But I can walk along any beach, any sidewalk or any mountain hiking trail in southern, central or northern CA; and "strangers" will almost always say "hello!" to me! The "stranger" could be of virtually any Ethnicity in the world: Asian American (whose origins are from Far East, Southeast or Asia minor or Philipino; etc.), African American, Hispanic (either middle-class type Hispanic American citizen or poor recent immigrant), White (of every kind: Northern European background, Western and Southern European background, Slavic (Eastern background), and Middle Eastern to include but not limited to: Iranian American, Arab American; etc.), South Pacific (Samoan; etc.) and the list goes on and on............
So, Californians KNOW they are NOT PERFECT and that their state is not perfect. But there are many wonderful things about California. The successful businesses and corporations, the exellent fire men who are well trained; the beautiful beaches, the COMPETANT Lawyers, the openness to new business and scientific ideas and the openness about living around all kinds of people (by the way, many "foreigners" who move to CA are very smart and successful though many are originally from 3rd World countries!); etc. etc.
I think the best thing about California is it's PEOPLE! ALL OF IT'S PEOPLE!!!! (Now don't gasp, CA critics!)
So if you think that the "grass is always greener on the other side" and if you are one of those Californians who HATE California and wish to move to a "better" and different state, you'd better really analyze why you have a bias against the state. You might really "love" and "admire" the folks who settled into other states like, say, Wisconsin (and indeed, there are SOME nice people there); but those other states (like WI) with whom you desire and admire have just as much problems in crime, drugs and alcohol problems, political corruption, teen pregnancies, low income persons of EVERY race and ethnicity; etc.
Please take those "rose colored glasses" off and get HONEST facts about other states (outside CA) before moving to them! Perhaps you'll find CA is a pretty nice place after all! Now, if you don't mind, I've got to "winterize" my windows and other parts of my house before Fall and especially before Winter comes!! Just thinking about a Wisconsin winter makes me cold! Brrrrrrrrr................
It is good to see someone write from the other view regardless of which side they are on. As for taxes, I think at this point Ca is almost at the top but I do not have the stats in front of me.
I only take exception to one thing, and that is the DUI. I am not saying you are wrong, again I haven't seen the latest studies, but that does surprise me when I think about NM and the Dekotas and a few other states. That is an interesting stat though.
I think the best thing about California is it's PEOPLE! ALL OF IT'S PEOPLE!!!! (Now don't gasp, CA critics!)
I'm not a CA critic, but I'm gasping...and vehemently disagreeing. No matter what one's climate preferences, outlook on life or political philosophy might be, mathematics imposes strict limits on livability and sustainability that we all have to deal with. They can't be repealed, ignored or voted away.
37 million people in one state is too many...WAY too many. There isn't any technology or political solution imaginable that can make that kind of population density sustainable or healthy. No overpopulated geopolitical entity of any size has ever escaped spiraling down to Third World levels of livability. California won't either. Only the very northern third of California still has the space, water and resources to support continued growth. The rest is on an irreversible overshoot and collapse trajectory.
I love the people in CA. At least where I have lived everyone is open and accepting and friendly. We actually LIKE and EXPECT people we meet to be from somewhere else, that's the fun of living here. I can't even imagine not accepting someone or being cautious of them because they aren't CA natives. I haven't met too many of those to be honest (besides my own family).
But I can walk along any beach, any sidewalk or any mountain hiking trail in southern, central or northern CA; and "strangers" will almost always say "hello!" to me!
Last Fall, a friend came out and stayed with me for a few days. He's from a town on the IL/WI border. He was impressed with how many random strangers waved at him, nodded his way or said hello to him while he was driving and riding his bike around Fontana. I've never noticed it... maybe I'm used to it. He said he doesn't see much of that back home.
37 million people in one state is too many...WAY too many. There isn't any technology or political solution imaginable that can make that kind of population density sustainable or healthy. No overpopulated geopolitical entity of any size has ever escaped spiraling down to Third World levels of livability. California won't either. Only the very northern third of California still has the space, water and resources to support continued growth. The rest is on an irreversible overshoot and collapse trajectory.
This is sheer nonsense. Japan is the same size as CA and has even more restrictive geography and it has 125 million people.
Smaller countries like the Netherlands also have very high population densities.
It's a RESOURCE and FINANCIAL MANAGEMENT issue. Not a population issue.
I'm a native of CA ...
PET PEEVE:
I am getting very tired of people who are CA natives who have never lived in another state, who constantly complain about CA and believe that the "grass is always greener somewhere else"!
And, I am equally tired of really rude people from other states WHO HAVE NEVER LIVED IN CA, yet say very hateful things about it! .....
Yes, I agree with you and this really bugs me as well. It seems like a popular trend on forums like this to blame CA for all life's problems and naively assume that moving to Kentucky, Texas, Oklahoma, Iowa, et al will solve all life's ills. If life were only that simple. But having the big cheap house somewhere in the middle of the US doesn't always equate to a better quality of life once all the other cons are taken into account. Yet I think these ppl need to move to discover what they really value and want. So moving is fine. In fact I encourage it as it can be a good learning experience. It is just the non stop complaining and scapegoating that goes on before one leaves that gets really old.
I do agree that generally speaking Californians seem to be more open to outsiders and genuinely friendly. So when you are used to that as the norm and then move somewhere else that is more closed minded toward change and outsiders it seems very strange and even backwards.
Derek
Last edited by MtnSurfer; 07-21-2009 at 08:05 PM..
I agree with coffeelovr - I've lived in both states too!
You are right on the money...wish I'd have just stayed in CA, even with it's problems.
I grew up and am now living in Milwaukee, b/c I thought Los Angeles was getting too overpriced and crowded (it is!) but Milwaukee is overpriced and there is very little work to go around.
I could go on, and will if one wants to ask, but I think that a certain mentality survives well in Wisconsin, and progressive minded people will have the toughest time fitting in, that is for sure. And, it is not the friendliest place either, though it did used to be some years ago.
You'll fit in well anywhere in Wisconsin if you love sports, deer hunting, drinking too much at dive bars, Harley-Davidson, and for the ladies -hold your horses - you, too, must *love* the Packers & Brewers, because all you have after that is tupperware parties and the like, so enjoy.
Oh, yeah, and you must love fried foods and poor service whereever you go. Don't think I've missed anything...anyway...
Thanks, coffeelovr, for posting this today ~ people should heed your warning.
I'm not a CA critic, but I'm gasping...and vehemently disagreeing. No matter what one's climate preferences, outlook on life or political philosophy might be, mathematics imposes strict limits on livability and sustainability that we all have to deal with. They can't be repealed, ignored or voted away.
37 million people in one state is too many...WAY too many. There isn't any technology or political solution imaginable that can make that kind of population density sustainable or healthy. No overpopulated geopolitical entity of any size has ever escaped spiraling down to Third World levels of livability. California won't either. Only the very northern third of California still has the space, water and resources to support continued growth. The rest is on an irreversible overshoot and collapse trajectory.
Sir,
You sound so arrogant, if I may say so. Who are you to decide what is "over population" anywhere; and further, how dare you, to believe that a certain amount of people is too much in a particular area?! So, who do you wish to be eliminated/told to leave from the CA population, Hmmm?? Do tell, sir! Do you want the poor, lower income persons???? What other "undesirables" do you want eliminated??? You sound like an over-intellectual elitist!
Let me tell you mr., there is room for EVERYONE if they are law abiding, and most Californians are!! Get out of your ivory tower university and try being humble!
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Yet I think these ppl need to move to discover what they really value and want. So moving is fine. In fact I encourage it as it can be a good learning experience. It is just the non stop complaining and scapegoating that goes on before one leaves that gets really old. 
I agree with coffeelovr - I've lived in both states too!
