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Does anyone really think we have a chance in hell against powers like Russia or the US? They will do what they want, and we will bend the easy way (via gradual cultural, economical, and political takeover, currently in progress) or the hard way (don't ask). They humour us out of good will.
Sure, but we punch above our weight when we need to. At the beginning of WWII, the Canadian Navy had 15 ships and about 2000 officers. Six years later at the end of the war, Canada, with a population of just over 11 million people, had the third largest navy in the world at over 450 ships, and over 90,000 sailors.
That gets back to the whole "history" thing. When we have to, Canadians can be the best in the world at near anything. It's a sad statement that we're prepared to let others do our jobs and have a "what can we do" attitude.
But...hell. Why don't we just go sign over the Yukon, NWT, and Nunavut to the Russians then? I mean, if we're just being humoured, why spend ANY money on the military? S***. Put that money into infrastructure or education or something.
It would have more tangible value there. Our gov't spends billions on garbage surplus that only endangers and embarrasses our service people (rusted subs, sinking ships, helicopters that can't fly, etc). It's a stupid attempt to try and roll like the "big boys" and is a complete waste.
You can get a good idea of how much a gov't values its soldiers by how it treats its veterans and those who come back physically (and mentally) debilitated. 'Nuff said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bostonkid123
It's called forming a strategic alliance with partners of similar values. Canada actively participated in the coalition in WWI, WWII, and the Cold War. Very few countries are capable of defending themselves independently in a regional or global conflict.
We already do this. My point is that no matter how much we try to beef up our current forces with whatever rusted-out clunky hunks of crap our government procures for us (for billions of our tax dollars) isn't going to change the fact that we can easily be squashed like a bug, should the powers that be decide it be thus.
Sure, but we punch above our weight when we need to. At the beginning of WWII, the Canadian Navy had 15 ships and about 2000 officers. Six years later at the end of the war, Canada, with a population of just over 11 million people, had the third largest navy in the world at over 450 ships, and over 90,000 sailors.
That gets back to the whole "history" thing. When we have to, Canadians can be the best in the world at near anything. It's a sad statement that we're prepared to let others do our jobs and have a "what can we do" attitude.
The world stage has changed considerably since then. Advanced countries have learned new ways to accomplish their goals without waging war. At least, not in an obvious fashion.
We have a strong and proud military past, and it's a crying shame that every effort was made to forget that through the end of the last century.
The idea that Canada is a nation of trembling cowards is ironic. It was once the Canadians of the British Empire who were considered militant and aggressive, while the isolationist Americans were the ones who were too passive and too peaceful.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeyyc
Sure, but we punch above our weight when we need to. At the beginning of WWII, the Canadian Navy had 15 ships and about 2000 officers. Six years later at the end of the war, Canada, with a population of just over 11 million people, had the third largest navy in the world at over 450 ships, and over 90,000 sailors.
Yes, but this is due to temporary circumstances more so than Canadian might. Most of the major world powers were destroyed or exhausted. France, Germany, Italy, and Japan had all been world leaders in naval affairs, and obviously in 1945 their navies were non-existent for the obvious reasons. The only surviving great powers in the world were the US, USSR, and the "sick old man" that was post-war Britain. Even during this brief period the beleaguered France still competed for Canada in the size of it's navy, and obviously quickly overtook it as she recovered from the war. By the end of 1945, countries like Sweden and Australia had larger navies than Canada.
We already do this. My point is that no matter how much we try to beef up our current forces with whatever rusted-out clunky hunks of crap our government procures for us (for billions of our tax dollars) isn't going to change the fact that we can easily be squashed like a bug, should the powers that be decide it be thus.
This I agree. However, that doesn't mean that Canada shouldn't put up a fight if the unlikely were to occur. During WWII, several tiny European countries still put up active resistance against German and Soviet invasions even though they clearly understood that they had no chance to win. In the Winter War of 1939/40, Stalin committed a total of 1 million men during the Soviet invasion of Finland, while Finland only had some 30 old tanks and 100 air crafts (against USSR's 6000+ tank fleet). The Finnish army and people put up one of the best fights in modern history, even under extremely limited resources and man-power, destroying over 1/3 of the entire Soviet invasion army.
You're aware that there's a climate change crisis occurring? When that happens, the Northwest Passage will become ice free. When that happens, it will become the largest shipping lane on the planet. The Northwest Passage runs almost entirely through Canadian waters. Would you rather have Russia and the United States policing our territory, up until the point where they decide it would be easier if it was theirs, or would you rather Canada have a hand in it's own destiny?
Russia has claimed the continental shelf up to and including the North Pole so that they can exert their territorial waters into Canadian space. Given the recent events in the Ukraine, it's not a dramatic thought that they may be willing to expand into a void that we've allowed. We won't even start about American expansionism by way of "aid".
You've nailed it!
We need to think in terms of husbanding our resources to use intelligence to define more explicitly, potential threats in our more immediate future and address those with our meagre budget options.
F-35's mmm, maybe not the best option on a cost to benefit ratio.
Dual role Icebreakers; perhaps a better alternative but if the ice goes away, having something painted bright red with water cannons as it's primary weaponry? Mmm..
Modern frigates, better subs, uuufduh, the political traction to have developed our own and restarted an in-house design and manufacture industry to recapture some of our past glory is overshadowed by healthcare and stupid provincial decisions to provide paid day-care as a priority for just one example.
We need to get our chit together because a wake-up call is coming and it will make our fear and focus upon Quebec separation look like a playground squabble between two midgets by comparison.
NorthYorked's defeatist attitude flies in the face of the reality of every single fracas on the planet involving the major powers having ended, either in abject defeat or at the very least, with a failure to achieve it's desired goal with subsequent enormous costs in lives and resources to the prosecutor. Canada will be no different should a foreign power invade. First wave will be a tsunami but the bite-back will be astronomical in comparison to engagements fought elsewhere. Weapons and resources will flow into Canada from many world sources. Our young will become endowed with the same drive for survival that has been indicative of Canadian behaviour down through the ages.
I predict given circumstances of invasion, Canadians will once again show the colours they displayed on the battlefields of Africa, Europe and Korea in our not to distant history. They will also be getting a lot of help from a variety of sources to do so.
No one is yet stupid enough to think a rampaging bear will leave their particular campsite alone.
NorthYorked's defeatist attitude flies in the face of the reality of every single fracas on the planet involving the major powers having ended, either in abject defeat or at the very least, with a failure to achieve it's desired goal with subsequent enormous costs in lives and resources to the prosecutor.
I'm not a defeatist, just a realist.
There will be no invasion. The elites will simply decide for us how it is going to be. Watch and see for yourself.
There will be no invasion. The elites will simply decide for us how it is going to be. Watch and see for yourself.
Bull. Relabeling oneself as being "realist" is the most oft used excuse in modern international relations and for avoiding responsibility. These kind of sentiments are even more dangerous than those Russian and Putin apologists rationalize his every action with Kremlin propaganda on issues like Crimea and Ukraine. Realists dislike the current condition, but they are also more than happy to be complacent and flow with the wind. It is exactly that kind of "realist" attitude that paved the play ground for dictatorships and the last world war.
I would say so. Canadian conservativism used to be basically British. These days it basically consists in parroting Fox News/Tea Party mantras ("big government", "freedom",etc). I've even seen people in Alberta going on xenophobic rants on "Mexican illegals", for goodness sake!
Canada has become more practical with serious financial willpower and it shows. They avoided the housing crisis, they have got the people behind measures to be competitive and to not depend on the Government which is frugal but yet smart and sympathetic to the needs of those who wholeheartedly do need the services it provides, has chopped down on waste, fraud, abuse and corruption and misappropriation of assets, has decisive leadership, good schooling, safe communities, and strategic goals.
Canada is not Conservative nor Liberal by US terminology "party names are just party names" and actually generates more tax collections per capita than the US in the form of GST and provincial taxes, excise taxes, more expensive taxing on Petro, but these higher revenues are managed and appropriated in ways that serve a very clear and unmistakable set of national goals and this is in no way play-around money. The budget is pragmatic and because of this there is no motion to raise nor lower the tax base in that foreseeable future. Which provides private sector with utmost security that the business environment in Canada is dependable, reliable, and stable.
Canada is not Leftwing nor rightwing, Canada strikes a balance somewhere in the middle and opposes extreme positions or extreme models of governance that do not strike harmony on either end.
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