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It is hard to disagree with all this. But I think that your idea of an open border is far removed from reality. There is no doubt that the border (anywhere) is a problem for things like trade and tourism. But I think that there is no motivation on any side to dissolve the border and allow free flow of citizens.
If the countries of most of Europe can get it done, then why can't Canada and the United States do likewise? We're vastly more similar than those disparate European countries.
It's the mindset that needs changing. This isn't pie in the sky dreaming here. It has already been done to great success in Europe.
I'd also dispute the notion that there's no motivation to get this done. Many Canadian businessmen would be very supportive of such an initiative. More than a few American businessmen would also support it, but they might also be a bit indifferent about its importance unless they have a keen understanding of the bilateral trading relationship between Canada and the United States. Other than the shrill left-wingers and the provincially-minded, policymakers on both sides of the border have grown increasingly comfortable with the idea of relaxing -- and maybe even erasing -- the Canada-U.S. border. I'm all for it and I hope that policymakers in Ottawa and Washington grow to understand that it should happen and then act to make it happen.
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Originally Posted by sandman249
From the top of my head I can think of major problems that would result in Canada from an open border. We all know that Canada has highly regulated and constricted banking and telecom sectors. What would happen to those in a free market? It would take the American telecom companies two days to bankrupt Rogers and Telus.
I don't care if those coddled companies can't make it.
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Originally Posted by sandman249
I just feel that Canada and Mexico are not ready for an open border. And the US does not care for an open border.
Canada is ready. Bay Street may not be ready, but Canada is. We're agreed that Mexico isn't ready, though. Not at this time.
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Originally Posted by sandman249
Growing louder? Who is making noise about this?
This has been discussed in the Canadian press on and off for a decade or more. Now it seems that the intelligentsia in the United States are starting to advocate for border reform. This could move to a scenario where the border disappears altogether if the right conditions present.
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Originally Posted by sandman249
Heck, the Americans cant even pass a simple immigration law for the folks already living in their country. And here you are talking about opening the border.
That's because they don't want poorly educated Mexican illegals being allowed to stay when they may not fit into society the way that they want. I'm talking about throwing open the border between two of the best educated countries in the world, countries that share a comparable standard of living, a common language, and -- for the most part -- a common culture. Canada and the United States are similar. Mexico and the United States aren't. This is pretty obvious.
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Originally Posted by sandman249
My point is that no one cares about this issue. It is simply not important at this point in time.
I knew you would respond like this. I think that in terms of being shocked or impressed, it's kind of a question of diminishing returns. The diversity of NYC did not impress or shock my kids either.
OMG, there's a black person! And another! And another! And there's five Asian people walking in a group! I can't believe it! And I just overheard some speaking Spanish! Holy cow!
I will agree that when you delve into stuff that's where Toronto's diversity really does pay off compared to a smaller city or metro like mine.
Oh C'mon ACA - it was a bit of friendly jostling - nothing more.. Ottawa Gatineau has diversity and I think if you grew up there and came to Toronto it wouldn't be extraordinary seeing someone different or speaking a different language - just the sheer size of each representative community that is in the city vs most.. That was the point I was trying to make and really that is all - not sure why everyone is getting their panties in a knot... When I was in Cote De Nieges in MTL I was impressed by the level of cultural and ethnic diversity and noted it.
Ok Fusion we get it, Toronto is diverse. Whoopdeedoo. It really isn't as big of a deal as you are always making it out to be. I highly doubt that people come to Toronto and are amazed at it's diversity. It is just a normal large sized North American city and the premier city in Canada. Of course it is going to be diverse. It would be much more shocking if Toronto was still an all-white city with only English and Scottish surnames.
Its a good thing in my books.. I'd prefer living in a highly diverse place like NYC, London, LA etc versus more mono-cultured places.. Any city should celebrate its diversity and if it has the largest communities of expats settled in and the largest array of festivals - should it celebrate - damn right - its about celebration, not superiority!
Montreal has the largest Gay Villiage in N.A - should they make note of that and celebrate it... Sure why shouldn't they, it is what it is.
Its a good thing in my books.. I'd prefer living in a highly diverse place like NYC, London, LA etc versus more mono-cultured places.. Any city should celebrate its diversity and if it has the largest communities of expats settled in and the largest array of festivals - should it celebrate - damn right!
I agree that diversity does help make London, NYC, LA, Toronto, etc. more interesting. It's a good thing. There's nothing wrong with mono-cultured places either and they can just as or even more interesting. Most European or Asian countries are less diverse but they also have a much deeper local culture than Canada. I would like to see some more balance in terms of people embracing Canada first versus getting more excited about other cultures too.
I agree that diversity does help make London, NYC, LA, Toronto, etc. more interesting. It's a good thing. There's nothing wrong with mono-cultured places either and they can just as or even more interesting. Most European or Asian countries are less diverse but they also have a much deeper local culture than Canada. I would like to see some more balance in terms of people embracing Canada first versus getting more excited about other cultures too.
That is just me Johnathan - I think growing up with such a diverse group of friends from all over has shaped my views. I'm not judging places with less diversity nor do I think diverse places are superior. Actually when I travel I do appreciate places with deep culture, history - but in terms of where I want to hang my hat - lotsa diversity is where its at for me
If the countries of most of Europe can get it done, then why can't Canada and the United States do likewise? We're vastly more similar than those disparate European countries.
It's the mindset that needs changing. This isn't pie in the sky dreaming here. It has already been done to great success in Europe.
I think that this is a bad analogy. The EU merger was <supposed to be> mutually beneficial for all countries involved. Here we are taking about two countries, which are mismatched in terms of size and scale - US with more than 300 million people and Canada a small country with 33 million. We are talking about Canada having to give up many things - currency, banking, sectors including telecom and retail. Is this all insignificant to you?
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I would also dispute that there's no motivation to get this done. Many Canadian businessmen would be very supportive of such an initiative. More than a few American businessmen would also support it, but they might also be a bit indifferent about its importance unless they have a keen understanding of the bilateral trading relationship between Canada and the United States. Other than the shrill left-wingers and the provincially-minded, policymakers on both sides of the border have grown increasingly comfortable with the idea of relaxing -- and maybe even erasing -- the Canada-U.S. border. I'm all for it and I hope that policymakers in Ottawa and Washington grow to understand that it should happen and then act to make it happen.
How can you dispute fact? If there was a lot of motivation on any side, we'd be hearing about it all the time. There would be lobbies in Washington and Ottawa trying to get bills passed to open the border. I don't remember having heard any politician of importance talk about this issue. And now, in the US you have Republican house and senate that would much rather build a fence than open the border.
A few business-men supporting this is not enough.
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I don't care if those coddled companies can't make it.
I don't either. But that's Canadian policy - created by Canadian politicians who were elected by Canadians.
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Canada is ready. Bay Street may not be ready, but Canada is. We are agreed that Mexico isn't ready, though. Not at this time.
Canada is not ready. See the point above.
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This has been discussed in the Canadian press on and off for a decade or more. It now seems that the intelligentsia in the United States are starting to advocate for border reform. This could move to a scenario where the border disappears altogether if the right conditions present.
LOL! Who? Can you give me a few names? Is there any politician who has suggested this?
I cant help but laugh at this because I am very familiar with border politics. Do you even know what happened in Michigan a couple of years ago when Canada was trying to build the new Detroit-Windsor bridge?
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That's because they don't want poorly educated Mexican illegals being allowed to stay when they may not fit into society the way that they want. I'm talking about throwing open the border between two of the best educated countries in the world, countries that share a comparable standard of living, a common language, and -- for the most part -- a common culture. Canada and the United States are similar. Mexico and the United States aren't. This is pretty obvious.
Not all are poor and un-educated. But that's not my point. My point is that US is unable to pass immigration type laws in general. They cant even expand the H1B program which is being lobbied by the likes of Facebook and Microsoft. Something as big as an open border with Canada would be laughed at by most people in the current political climate.
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Well, you don't care about it. That's for sure.
I'd care if others did. I like the idea of having an open border. If nothing, it would be great for tourism in the border cities. But, it is hard to get excited about something that no one is talking about.
Well Edward - I think its established that most people in the world aren't quite yet on your level of sophistication, culture or travel. It is what it is.. I stick by my comments re Toronto.. I'd be very surprised if I found the number and size - depth/breadth as you'd find in Toronto in most other places - has nothing to do with it being my own ONLY point of reference. You're not talking to someone who doesn't have friends and hasn't visited many a U.S city btw. I think you know it as well! I'll dig up your posts on T.O's hyper diversity just for emphasis lol.. you need reminded about what you said apparently. Does it make T.O better than Boston - no it just is what it is and is more descriptive than anything - but its certainly not a bad thing being hyper diverse..
I am just a guy from a Third world country that is 90% Black, if the whole diversity thing isn't knock my socks off impressive to me, it shouldn't be to anyone.
This isn't about any one particular city. This is about DC, Houston, Sacramento, Boston, Philly, LA, SF, Chicago, Miami, Dallas, Montreal, Vancouver, Ottawa, Calgary, Amsterdam, Paris, Manchester, Perth, Sydney, Auckland, Brussels, Lyon, Marseilles, Leeds, Frankfurt, Berlin, etc, etc, etc....do you get my point?
As I mentioned I have lived in your hyper diverse (Yes I have used that term, lol) "Big 3" and it is hard for me to exactly pin point some cultural experience I could immerse myself in there that I could not replicate in the majority of the cities mentioned above.
Just a quick question to you. How has living in one of the Big 3 really shaped your life and afforded you a superior cultural experience that people living in other slightly less diverse cities? Is it the food? You can basically find at least a few options in each ethnic group in the cities above. The Festivals? As I mentioned above, Google 'XYZ Nationality Festival XYZ City' and see how many hits you get. Is it access to a more diverse group of close friends? I have a pretty eclectic and diverse group of friends, but when I visit my friends in other cities they seem to accomplish the same. Have you taken the time to learn a new language? Cook a new type food? What is it exactly that is missing in everyones life elsewhere?
Canada and the US are already economically unified so why ban the free exchange of human beings? It seems silly to allow products to flow freely between the countries only to severely limit human migration.
Is not a bad analogy...look at the difference in size between New Zealand and Australia...and there are a lot of very small countries in the EU compared to the "giants". Then you have Mercosur and Unasur with Brazil playing the part of the US compared to the others....
Furthermore, free circulation of people does not necessarily mean, custom, banking and currency union..again, look at the Kiwi-Australia arrangement or current Mercosur/Unasur.
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Something as big as an open border with Canada would be laughed at by most people in the current political climate.
Actually open border has been advocated by quite few think-tank in the US and recently a book about it has been written by Diane Francis (Editor-at-large at the National Post) "Merger of the Century: Why Canada and America Should Become One Country".
I remember the calling for a "Common perimeter" in the early 2000s.
Things can change.
Last edited by saturno_v; 11-11-2014 at 01:46 PM..
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