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Lyon, a city I know. So you want to compare metro's. Vancouver's Skytrain has 68.7 K's of track with another 10.9 opening soon, for a total of 79.6 K's of track.
Lyon's metro has 30.3 K of track and has actually 4 lines, not 5.
Vancouver doesn't have any real LRT lines, but does have a heavy rail line the Westcoast express, which comes from Mission to downtown and is scheduled to only serve daytime commuters.
Lyon is inland and surrounded by suburbs ( mostly modern and unattractive ) it's LRT, trams, has 6 lines, with Trams 3, 4, 5 and 6 ( Rhone Express ) all opening in the last 10 years. So you are naturally you are going to technically have more lines since they come from all directions.
In Vancouver the vast majority of commuters come from the east since the Pacific Ocean is on the west. Some come from the south, Richmond, but both east and south are covered by the Skytrain and Westcoast Express. The ones that come from the North, only cross the harbour and transit besides buses is the Seabus.
Your comparisons are really not thought out, but just once again seem to be a way for you to whine. Your thought process seems to be that of a young child who chooses a package of sweets because there are 20 pieces of candy instead of 10, even though that package of 10 may weigh twice as much.
EDIT: When comparing two cities transit systems, it is not as simple as saying this city has 6 lines vs one have 4 etc. The type of system, metro being faster than LRT, the frequency and length of the service, all play a part. Hence, my candy comment.
Nat, took those words right out of my mouth. Botti, you aren't the only one who's traveled to Lyon. As Nat correctly stated, Lyon has 4 metro lines, not 5, and there are no expansion plans for its metro unlike the GTA cities in southern Ontario.
Lyon Metro may have 4 lines, same number as Toronto (or as you say you don't consider Toronto's Line 4 as a proper "line" with only 6 stations, so we'll say Toronto has 3 lines), but Lyon's total system length is less than 30 km, less than half of that of Toronto's:
Lyon Metro Length: 30 km
TTC Subway Length: 68.3 km
Lyon Metro Stations: 40 stations
TTC Subway Stations: 69 stations
Lyon Metro Expansion as of 2016: no ongoing projects
TTC Subway Expansion as of 2016: 35.1 km under construction, 28 new stations to come online in the next 1-4 years, increasing system capacity by 51.2% not including other fully funded projects that have not started construction as of Oct 2016.
Lyon Tramway Lines: 6 Lines
TTC Streetcar Lines: 11 Lines
Lyon Tramway System Length: 75.3 km
TTC Streetcar System Length: 83 km
I fully appreciate the fact that Toronto is a more populous, more important city relative to Lyon, hence it SHOULD and MUST build larger, more expansive transit. However, I also want to put your words into perspective when you praise certain European city's transit through the stratosphere while making it sound as if Toronto is purposely getting pulling up and destroying its own transit tracks like we still live in the Medieval Ages.
*And since you don't consider TTC's Sheppard Yonge Line 4 as a "real subway line", fair enough. In the same logic, I will say that Lyon's 2.5 km, 5-station Ligne C is also not a "real" metro line, given that it's only half the length of TTC Line 4. Fair and square, chico?
I don't think Botticcelli is in Lyon. If you look at the info he's given on the mysterious French city, Lyon is too large. There are only two options that really fit his description.
Because Toronto is a North American city located in North America, which has a completely different historic development context, different history, different culture, different life style patterns, different urban streetscape, than anything you would find in Europe.
Why isn't Shanghai like Paris with bistros and cafes and baguettes on every corner?
Why is Boston like Munich, with pretzel houses and beer halls on every street?
Geez I just wish Toronto can just whip out a wand, spend $100 billion on 10 subway lines and build 10 grand boulevards, and become Lyon or Marseille next year, but I also live in the real world and know that Toronto just doesn't have the ability to do that. I do agree with you that Toronto has a lot more work to be done with regards to traffic, transit, and public spaces, but how do you know those are not happening as we speak? Many many people, urban planners, ordinary citizens, elected officials, transit officials are working their asses off making everyday improvements - how can you make sweeping generalizations and categorically dismiss all their efforts and simply say "Look Toronto, be more like Lyon/Nice/Marseille"? In many ways, Toronto is like a city in a developing country - many things are still in flux, the demographics are in transition, the transport and transit modes are in transition period, the housing development and density are in transition, it's very much different from old world European cities that are experiencing very different stages of development. How can a seemingly intelligent and well-traveled fellow like yourself not grasp this?
Also, just fyi, Ottawa currently has 2 underground and elevated LRT lines under construction, called the Confederation lines, and a 3rd one just received federal and provincial funding in August. The first one will come online next year in mid to late 2017. So no it's not "all buses".
I see your point but dense, walkable urban spaces with decent transit aren't a European thing, they're a global, human thing.
They exist all over the world and even in the Americas.
Oh I completely agree. But what would you have Torontonians do, with our limited resources, current recession? It's not like City Hall and John Tory can just command everyone to move out of their Rosedale single family homes so we can construct more midrises with cafes and bistros and bakeries - for the record I'd be the first person to sign up to be the bulldozer driver, just don't know how it would work logistically given the resources we have today.
I don't think Botticcelli is in Lyon. If you look at the info he's given on the mysterious French city, Lyon is too large. There are only two options that really fit his description.
He just said it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli
Speaking of Lyon, I am in it right now. a city of 2 million people, 5 subway lines 6 LRT lines. Vancouver has similar population and 4 lines and often seems proud of their "good transit system".
But that's not where he is "living" in France. He said it was a metro of 600-700 k. That's way smaller than Lyon. Where I assume he was just visiting.
I think we can agree that the possibility that Botti's stats aren't always accurate, however it doesn't matter because he was talking about Lyon and the transit in Lyon.
Knowing Vancouver transit well and having taken Lyon's transit manyl times over the years, I can say that Vancouver is no slouch when compared to Lyon. Both have good, clean systems. The case for trams has been made in Vancouver, and we even had test one going to Granville Island, but as charming as they are, they aren't efficient and they are slow for covering long distances, so we've chosen a different way. I personally think though that a few short routes using trams downtown to fill the gaps would be good.
I can't help thinking that Botti has a case of " if it's Canadian " it's inferior disease. The French have a similar disease when it comes to the English.
I remember reading a book, I believe it was called " Spotted Dick ", written by an Englsihman who opened up an English restaurant in France. He summed it up this way. Paraphrasing here. " They came and ate the food, and thought it was delicious. Compliments all around, but they felt the need to say that it wasn't English cooking or food, because English food is bad, so therefore any food that is tasty can not be English."
Oh I completely agree. But what would you have Torontonians do, with our limited resources, current recession? It's not like City Hall and John Tory can just command everyone to move out of their Rosedale single family homes so we can construct more midrises with cafes and bistros and bakeries - for the record I'd be the first person to sign up to be the bulldozer driver, just don't know how it would work logistically given the resources we have today.
So much of the past you can't change, this is true. But how effectively are Canadian/North American cities moving away from those ways of building? That's what they deserve to be judged upon.
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