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On the issue of which city is more Hispanic between Toronto and Montreal, I'll say again that Montreal and Quebec do feel and sound like there is a greater Hispanic presence than Toronto and Ontario. As I mentioned even though the numbers are only barely higher, we are talking about a smaller city and province than Toronto and Ontario, plus there are fewer large immigrant groups *competing* (so to speak) for visibility.
I mean, in sheer numbers New York City probably has more francophones than St-Hyacinthe, but that doesn't make NYC more francophone a city than St-Hyacinthe.
English proficiency, if not fluency, and university degrees. These aren't the border hoppers that the United States has to deal with 24/7/365.
I'll grant you South Asians (at least those who manage to get accepted by Canada), but for East Asians if you ask people who live in places where many of them settled (Markham, ON; Richmond, BC), I am not sure the locals would agree.
BTW, not passing judgement on these people's English skills. Just saying that the generalized perception out there isn't necessarily that they all have high English proficiency.
In a lot of cases you probably would hear the same kinds of complaints people make about Spanish speakers in some parts of the U.S.
I'm not talking about the size of all groups (or even diversity and multiculturalism relative to crime), i'm talking about the size of certain groups who unfortunately have a disproportionate rate of crime relative their size. The larger those groups become the more challenges arise. As I said, throw an extra 200K at Greater Montreal of certain groups and all things being equal - let's see what happens to the crime rate.
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Relative to population though, these groups make up very similar shares of the population in Toronto and Montreal (city proper and CMA in both cases).
So if the situation were the same, you'd think that the share of murder victims and perpetrators coming from that group would be similar in both cities.
But it's not.
In Toronto the lion's share of murder victims tends to be from that demographic, year in and year out. In Montreal there are some victims from that group but they're usually a relatively small minority of them. What murder victims there are in Montreal are generally much more spread out across the various demographics in the population than in Toronto.
Whether that's a good or bad thing can be debated, I guess.
I think ultimately unless you live in a multicultural society and I mean truly live in it and truly embrace it you simply will be more likely to hold the views you have on it AJ. .
I'm fine. Really.
20 years ago the best man at my wedding was a really good friend from a reasonably "alien" culture.
A couple of years later I was the best man at his wedding which was a true ethnic mega wedding with hundreds of people. I kissed and got kissed by dozens of men I barely knew, and even learned to speak a bit of the language for the occasion as I was also the MC for the reception - in French, English and their native language.
And my contemporary self has seen kids from over 20 nationalities swim in his backyard pool over the past decade or so.
I've had as much personal exposure to different cultures as the average Toronto guy my age, I assure you.
Not sure why I have to lay out my "letters patent" in this way, but it seems like a good idea given the tone of the discussion...
I just find these narratives too easy to the point that it dumbs down a society. There may be some elements of truth within groups - maybe even large groups of a society but to just latch onto these narratives as a simple idea that needs to be absorbed in order to identify with something is dismissive in my opinion. Not only dismissive to a society, but dismissive to every individual within.
But surely you can see that these things still exist nonetheless? Even if they are just undercurrents they still play a role in shaping relationships, self-image, etc.
On the issue of which city is more Hispanic between Toronto and Montreal, I'll say again that Montreal and Quebec do feel and sound like there is a greater Hispanic presence than Toronto and Ontario. As I mentioned even though the numbers are only barely higher, we are talking about a smaller city and province than Toronto and Ontario, plus there are fewer large immigrant groups *competing* (so to speak) for visibility.
I mean, in sheer numbers New York City probably has more francophones than St-Hyacinthe, but that doesn't make NYC more francophone a city than St-Hyacinthe.
Yes, I have to agree. Toronto might have more in numbers but the Latin Ameican presence in MTL is much more palpable.
Toronto is what it is. Objectively it is incredibly diverse and multicultural. I would even go so far as describing it as hyper diverse along the lines that few cities can match. That said, to somehow conclude that the city is 'competing' with others for most diverse or to simply add cultures to it as a 'collection' is absurd and completely misses the point of why the city attracts so many different people from around the globe.
I don't know if I am the only one - but some of the sentiment coming in regarding issues with segregation, issues with multiculturalism, over simplifying narratives is actually pretty disturbing. It is clear to me that some people simply are either completely removed from being a part of a multicultural society or they have been removed for so long out of perhaps need to reinforce their own roots as being strong. They need to draw a line in the sand and simply being dismissive about what goes on the other side of that line - undermining it in a way so it reinforces what they value. There is an arrogance and dismissiveness to it that is fundamentally not part of a positive or healthy mind set because it lacks respect for a different way.
Disturbing? I don't necessarily see multiculturalism as being an untouchable, unassailable identity marker any more than having the best cuisine (France/Italy) or being the most efficient and industrious (Germany).
So sure you can build your edifice upon that foundation, but people will challenge you on it just like they challenge everyone else about everything else.
There is nothing exceptionally disturbing or dismissive about that.
Yes, I have to agree. Toronto might have more in numbers but the Latin Ameican presence in MTL is much more palpable.
Likewise, we could say that Winnipeg is the most Filipino city in Canada, even though Toronto has five times as many Filipinos. (Vancouver may have more than Winnipeg as well.)
My humble, personal explanation for Hispanic and Latino people not giving too much consideration to Canada: it is cold (both physically and SOUL-wise) and there is not too much culture resonance with the Latin spirit in general (not to mention the extreme Socialism).
Of all provinces and metropolitan area, maybe Montreal or QC in general has a better chance.
Even some European do not find it to their liking - and that's not for the frigid winters reasons alone...
I've heard quite a few Latin Americans say that Canada is not very colourful and engaging culturally. That it's not very lively, compared to what they're used to.
I'd echo what others have said that the do value Canada's stability and safety.
Not sure about "socialism" (extreme or otherwise). I guess it depends on the person but Latin America is one of the world's most socialist, collectivist regions, even today.
They're desperate and as the alternative might involve being abused and mistreated in some Persian Gulf state, Canada is a treat for them. For the less desperate or those who aren't really desperate at all, it isn't nearly as much of a treat.
But they don't have to settle in Manitoba - almost every other place in Canada is warmer than Manitoba.
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