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Enjoy that in North Charleston, perfect place for it.
I don't disagree with you. North Charleston's potential is enormous given the existing infrastructure and is totally the right spot for stuff like this.
But if you look at the denser ares of Charleston: Avondale, Coleman, Riverland, etc integrating a few of these kinds of buildings into an existing semi-dense neighborhood makes way more sense than sticking them out in the middle of nowhere. The idea is to grow an existing area and to not create more sprawl.
It all comes down to population growth and handling it responsibly and sustainably. With boomers wanting to move back into cities from the suburbs and new people moving to Charleston, these kinds of buildings need to be built, and it only stands to reason that they be built in existing dense neighborhoods of Charleston.
I'm not sure exactly why North Charleston isn't more of a destination for these but it's just not. And if people's real problem isn't so much with these buildings as it is with density, traffic and Charleston's population growth as a whole, well then maybe living in a city isn't the place for them.
You sound like a hypocrite. "How can it be good to destroy acres of land with wildlife?" I don't know, ask the people that developed James Island to the max from the 20th century into today. James Island is sprawled out and it is all single-family detached. You are now seeing an influx of apartments and condos because 1. that's hot in Charleston right now, and 2. there is no-more-room. Look at a map of James Island, its pretty close to capacity.
You obviously have an anti-apartment/condo/density bias, and you're not fair with it. You don't have to understand real estate to know that building a 100 feet tall condo tower takes up less space than building a 100-home neighborhood. The tower is better "for wildlife", acres, and sprawl. Near 40,000 people live on JI, and the majority are in their own houses, not apartments.
I just told you why the traffic is so bad: there's only one major road that's handles beach traffic, nearly all of JI's commercial traffic, and residential having to come from every single angle. Folly's mess spills onto Maybank, plus being the only way over there to get on the (sprawling) John's I. Riverland is backed up because you know why. You can't complain about traffic, and then complain that expanding roads hurts the wildlife. That is the attitude around here that has gotten everything stalled. And it makes no sense. Why complain about something if you're not open to ways to fix it?
Look at a map. No one would be displaced anywhere. And yes, I am on city council, and I just made a nice chump of change because I just rezoned Mt Pleasant to 100% industrial without telling anybody. Ya caught me! Oops!
And natural beauty is subjective. I (and many others) still see great natural qualities with JI. Just because you hate that people were allowed to move in after you and create "growth" doesn't make the island "ugly."
Here's the thing. You're so young. You're still in college. The commuting to work, having a family, having a family home, etc - those are all things you just haven't experienced yet. So it would make sense you would be in favor of dense housing. When you have to - day in and day out - fight those hundreds more of cars because of that increased density, it makes density seem like a dirty word. In the Charleston area, density has its place and in bedroom communities, it's just not the right place for that. There's some on here that think we must build for everyone who wants to live in an area. No, we don't. So if it becomes harder to buy in an area because of popularity, so what? I think North Charleston would be an ideal location for increased density because the infrastructure can be developed/changed right along with adding increased dense housing.
Here's the thing. You're so young. You're still in college. The commuting to work, having a family, having a family home, etc - those are all things you just haven't experienced yet. So it would make sense you would be in favor of dense housing. When you have to - day in and day out - fight those hundreds more of cars because of that increased density, it makes density seem like a dirty word. In the Charleston area, density has its place and in bedroom communities, it's just not the right place for that. There's some on here that think we must build for everyone who wants to live in an area. No, we don't. So if it becomes harder to buy in an area because of popularity, so what? I think North Charleston would be an ideal location for increased density because the infrastructure can be developed/changed right along with adding increased dense housing.
What? This all makes sense now (Jandrew5). You and I are on very different trajectories. I'm sure you love the maybank/zia/pourhouse, terrace theater area "excitement" and nightlife. I am talking 9-5 work, kids, groceries, activities.
We will probably never see eye to eye based upon age/lifestyle. Such is life.
I 100% agree with southbel. James Island is popular and so harder to buy. They shouldn't throw up HUGE aprtment complexes...it's all in the name of greed.
Here's the thing. You're so young. You're still in college. The commuting to work, having a family, having a family home, etc - those are all things you just haven't experienced yet. So it would make sense you would be in favor of dense housing. When you have to - day in and day out - fight those hundreds more of cars because of that increased density, it makes density seem like a dirty word. In the Charleston area, density has its place and in bedroom communities, it's just not the right place for that. There's some on here that think we must build for everyone who wants to live in an area. No, we don't. So if it becomes harder to buy in an area because of popularity, so what? I think North Charleston would be an ideal location for increased density because the infrastructure can be developed/changed right along with adding increased dense housing.
Spoiler
You've done this before, and I've told you before: please stop acting like you personally know who I am. It does not matter that I am in college. I've had to work, I've had to commute, I'm off campus all the time. I don't even live on campus. I know what it feels like. I'm not shuttered up in a dorm, stuck to a 1/4 mile radius of the college with no job because I can "walk everywhere."
I'm in favor of some dense housing [for James Island] because there is no-room-to-grow, and the island still-has-growth-opportunity. Have you seen a map of James Island? There's is no room to build neighborhoods. There's barely any room to even build another Walmart if they wanted to (yeah yeah I know, Walmart is evil or whatever). The island has to go up. Traffic is a headache at times, but I blame that more on how the govt has handled the island (and the poor sync of the traffic lights), than on the developers. (Seriously the sync is awful. You fly off the connector only to get stopped and backed up on Ellis Oak).
You wouldn't be having to fight so much traffic if James Island wasnt so sprawled out. That requires people to have to drive farther and farther, and again, having only Folly Road does not help matters, but because all of the land has been taken by single-family development, there is no where else to put a new "Folly Road."
So people want James Island growth to stop because it requires devels to build up now, and people want Johns Island growth to stop because its spawl and ruins the rural fabric (even though sprawl was okay apparently with JI). Mt Pleasant is going to cap out soon, but people don't want to go up, and N Chas is still not the most desirable place. The neck is still a barren dump, and now people want to challenge high density downtown because it "doesn't fit" and its "too high." So my question is...where are these people supposed to go? People move to Charleston, then experience the "traffic" and "noise" and then want to cap growth afterwards. I don't get it.
James Island is still a great area, it's safe enough, schools are good, theres enough amenities, and its a great central location, like great location. Traffic is a problem, but its not a 24/7 thing. If you drove through JI right now, you could breeze right through. More blame needs to be put on the government than developers. When JI was growing, they 1. shouldn't have allowed so much commercial to go on 1 strip, 2. they should've capped neighborhood growth or designed it better, and 3. they shouldve paved more "Folly Roads" in anticipation for future. They didnt. But let's fault developers because they see an area is still highly desirable and would like to take advantage...
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyas
What? This all makes sense now (Jandrew5). You and I are on very different trajectories. I'm sure you love the maybank/zia/pourhouse, terrace theater area "excitement" and nightlife. I am talking 9-5 work, kids, groceries, activities.
We will probably never see eye to eye based upon age/lifestyle. Such is life.
I 100% agree with southbel. James Island is popular and so harder to buy. They shouldn't throw up HUGE aprtment complexes...it's all in the name of greed.
You people on City Data are very bad about making assumptions about others. I've never been to the Terrace theater. I have no idea what the "maybank/zia/pourhouse" is. And I don't even know what my "trajectory" is, so I'm not sure how you would.
No, we could see eye to eye. I understand your frustration, I do, I just think it's unfair, partial, and bias. I think its silly you keep calling apartment developers greedy and say they're destroying the environment and the fabric of the island and wildlife, but have nothing to say about all the single housing thats maxed out the island over the years, destroying the environment and the fabric of the island and wildlife in the process...
If there's no room to build neighborhoods, stop building. We are full. Stop trying to cram people onto an island that is out of room. If people want to live there, wait for something to come open. In the 23 years I have lived there, I have seen nothing like the recent clear-cutting that's been going on for these projects. Normal yards and homesites do not have nearly the destructive beginning as these recent developments.
I take the same issue with all of these dense homesites as well. What ever happened to yards of .25 and .50 acres? I am talking constant constant destruction and packing people in like sardines..schools are overcrowded, roads are jammed. The places they are building are going up in record time. How can they be of quality? What is the long-term repercussion of that?
How can you claim to know anything about JI when you are not even sure what the zia/maybank pourhouse is? Do you even live on JI?
If you don't, you have no idea what I am talking about. Everywhere we look, there is destruction and unprecedented growth.
You've done this before, and I've told you before: stop acting like you personally know who I am. It does not matter that I am in college. I've had to work, I've had to commute, I'm off campus all the time. I don't even live on campus. I know what it feels like. I'm not shuttered up in a dorm, stuck to a 1/4 mile radius of the college with no job because I can "walk everywhere."
I'm in favor of some dense housing [for James Island] because there is no-room-to-grow, and the island still-has-growth-opportunity. Have you seen a map of James Island? There's is no room to build neighborhoods. There's barely any room to even build another Walmart if they wanted to (yeah yeah I know, Walmart is evil or whatever). The island has to go up. Traffic is a headache at times, but I blame that more on how the govt has handled the island (and the poor sync of the traffic lights), than on the developers. (Seriously the sync is awful. You fly off the connector only to get stopped and backed up on Ellis Oak).
You wouldn't be having to fight so much traffic if James Island wasnt so sprawled out. That requires people to have to drive farther and farther, and again, having only Folly Road does not help matters, but because all of the land has been taken by single-family development, there is no where else to put a new "Folly Road."
So people want James Island growth to stop because it requires devels to build up now, and people want Johns Island growth to stop because its spawl and ruins the rural fabric (even though sprawl was okay apparently with JI). Mt Pleasant is going to cap out soon, but people don't want to go up, and N Chas is still not the most desirable place. The neck is still a barren dump, and now people want to challenge high density downtown because it "doesn't fit" and its "too high." So my question is...where are these people supposed to go? You can't move to James I and contribute to the sprawl, then say "okay, no more, we're good", or anywhere for that matter. People move to Charleston, then experience the "traffic" and "noise" and then want to cap growth afterwards. I don't get it.
James Island is still a great area, it's safe enough, schools are good, theres enough amenities, and its a great central location, like great location. Traffic is a problem, but its not a 24/7 thing. If you drove through JI right now, you could breeze right through. More blame needs to be put on the government than developers. When JI was growing, they 1. shouldn't have allowed so much commercial to go on 1 strip, 2. they should've capped neighborhood growth or designed it better, and 3. they shouldve paved more "Folly Roads" in anticipation for future. They didnt. But let's fault developers because they see an area is still highly desirable and would like to take advantage...
There's something wrong with your logic. You think adding more vertical development is the answer. Yet, Charleston and James Island, the topic at hand, is still very much a car dependent locale. So really, all you are doing by adding more dense development is increasing the car traffic on already congested roads. It's not appropriate for already developed bedroom communities that do not have and will not have a multitude of public transportation options available.
I lived in Atlanta back in the day when it was on the cusp of getting 'huge'. They took what was former bedroom communities and did the same you're talking about here, all in the name of combating sprawl. They added dense housing via apartments, condos, etc. All it did was take busy roads and make them unbearable. Experiences and age matters because you get to see how some of these ideas are actually executed in real life.
As to the local government not anticipating the growth back fifty years ago when James Island was developed - not sure I'm going to touch that one because it seems a bit far fetched to believe that should have been done way back when. But I did suggest North Charleston as an ideal location because this still could be done there, it's ripe for revitalization, and could even support easy commuting options down to the peninsula. I think there's a place for everything and developers wanting to increase density in these high dollar bedroom community zip codes has absolutely nothing to do with smart planning and everything to do with the highest return on investment per acre, existing residents be damned.
There's something wrong with your logic. You think adding more vertical development is the answer. Yet, Charleston and James Island, the topic at hand, is still very much a car dependent locale. So really, all you are doing by adding more dense development is increasing the car traffic on already congested roads. It's not appropriate for already developed bedroom communities that do not have and will not have a multitude of public transportation options available.
I think there's a place for everything and developers wanting to increase density in these high dollar bedroom community zip codes has absolutely nothing to do with smart planning and everything to do with the highest return on investment per acre, existing residents be damned.
100% You nailed it.
Add to that overcrowded schools. We cannot build a Wando or multiple middle and elementary schools. We do not have that land available.
One thing that's important to note along side all of that, is that when density is added in certain areas, people expect the schools and roads to come with it. But the legality and expense get in the way.
For example, 26 simply cannot be widened anymore. It's against the law to get any wider between 526 and Ashley Phosphate. Coleman simply can't get any wider.
And regarding expense, take a look at the Daniel Island high school situation. People expected a high school to be built on the island proper, but the land is just too expensive to build it there now that everything else has been built.
If there's no room to build neighborhoods, stop building. We are full. Stop trying to cram people onto an island that is out of room. If people want to live there, wait for something to come open. In the 23 years I have lived there, I have seen nothing like the recent clear-cutting that's been going on for these projects. Normal yards and homesites do not have nearly the destructive beginning as these recent developments.
I take the same issue with all of these dense homesites as well. What ever happened to yards of .25 and .50 acres? I am talking constant constant destruction and packing people in like sardines..schools are overcrowded, roads are jammed. The places they are building are going up in record time. How can they be of quality? What is the long-term repercussion of that?
How can you claim to know anything about JI when you are not even sure what the zia/maybank pourhouse is? Do you even live on JI?
If you don't, you have no idea what I am talking about. Everywhere we look, there is destruction and unprecedented growth.
I have lived on James Island, yes. I have never been on Maybank Hwy before because I've never needed or wanted to be on it.
So, what's your solution to the fix? Since its become so horrible to you, what do you think is a solution (for the problems that are already there). I think they should fix Folly (aestethically and functionally), create safer bike conditions, sync lights, expand Riverland and re-connect to Grimball to create a Folly bypass, build 526, and I gave an idea in another thread to create a beach trolley system and Folly Beach car toll to get beach traffic off Folly Rd. Do you have any suggestions (other than adding busses)?
Unfortunately "we're full" is not a valid solution to growth.
The school concern and traffic I look at as two sides of the same coin. They're growing pains that ultimately lead to newer schools and better public transit, because the population is there to support the use and (some of) the expense.
We all sit here debate whether or not we should let Charleston's population grow like its some sort of gated communuty. The fact is the city is already growing and becoming more urban, not because people want it to, but because it needs to in order to sustain itself. It's how all cities grow, and Charleston is no exception.
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What? This all makes sense now (Jandrew5). You and I are on very different trajectories. I'm sure you love the maybank/zia/pourhouse, terrace theater area "excitement" and nightlife. I am talking 9-5 work, kids, groceries, activities.
