Why Is Atlanta's Traffic So Bad? (Future Charlotte Development Thread) (Huntersville: chapel, credit)
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All my numbers come from the US Census, (I already said this) you can check them yourself if you doubt them. If this is the criteria, then I have provided proof. Furthermore I will point out that you have provided nothing except assumptions that have all turned out to be incorrect.
You can't accuse me of cherry picking because I did this with the places that you picked out. Sorry son, but you lost this argument.
What argument?
You have yet to prove to me that most people relocating to Charlotte are moving into the inner neighborhoods such as Uptown, South End, and NoDa as opposed to the suburban areas. How is someone moving to Ballantyne or Steele Creek any different as compared with someone moving to Huntersville or Concord given that those areas are predominantly suburban and auto-orientated in nature?
In that sense Charlotte is hardly any different from Atlanta.
I have to agree with this a bit but will toss in a caveat in defense of the less than stellar planned MARTA system in Atlanta. Atlanta's urban infrastructure mimics most sunbelt cities and doesn't mirror the traditional northeastern city style urban development which mostly occurred during the pre-auto era.
DC has miles of rowhouses and dense urban neighborhoods that aren't indigenous to the city of Atlanta. However, Altanta could have done better TOD planning to spur growth and urbanity. I think years of study and best practices will benefit Charlotte, Houston, Dallas, etc. and other cities pursuing mass transit options.
That said, every major city has traffic woes no matter how effcient and well planned the mass transit system. When I leave DC traveling southward....best believe I try to get of the metro or close to Fredricksburg by 2pm.
Charlotte will have been better planned, but traffic woes will continue to intensify and become increasingly comparable to Atlanta.
Yet you are an avid poster in the Charlotte forum for the purpose of making boosterism posts about Atlanta. While you might talk the talk, you don't walk the walk. You can check this yourself. I have never made a single post in the ATL forum because it holds absolutely no interest for me. If I want to visit a bigger city, I get on the NC owned Carolinian train and goes to Union Station right in DC. It makes daily trips to the NC and is currently being converted to high speed rail. Why would I deal with the hellish traffic to go to a city where nobody wishes to live?
DC's traffic is worse, you know. And plenty of folks want to live in Atlanta, but city limits aren't seen as such a hard boundary here. For the most part, ITP is recognized as core Atlanta and OTP the 'burbs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by frewroad
This topic is, after all, keeping Charlotte's future from becoming that of Atlanta's. I'm glad we didn't over develop during the 70s & 80s. There is absolutely no desire here to have a MSA of 5M that stretches over 10,000 sq/miles and covers close to 30 counties.
Charlotte definitely has the benefit of developing later to learn from the mistakes of cities that have developed earlier. One way in which it is doing this compared to Atlanta is developing TOD from the start in conjunction with light rail. But otherwise, I'm not quite so sure if it's doing anything else necessarily better.
This is totally consistent with what I've said. The lack of highways is why the DC Metro has so many riders and why they are currently making the very large expansion out to Dulles Airport. It's much much better than continuing to pave over everything with more highways.
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They are still building new roads to cater to the sprawl/cars there though, such as the ICC.
Quote:
Originally Posted by diablo234
You have yet to prove to me that most people relocating to Charlotte are moving into the inner neighborhoods such as Uptown, South End, and NoDa as opposed to the suburban areas. How is someone moving to Ballantyne or Steele Creek any different as compared with someone moving to Huntersville or Concord given that those areas are predominantly suburban and auto-orientated in nature?
I would be interested to see some numbers in this regard. I don't know, but I would imagine what you say here is pretty accurate. Although on one hand, even though a lot of the areas you mentioned are certainly not the inner core, at least they are still within Mecklenburg county (even though the outlying counties are growing tremendously as well).
You have yet to prove to me that most people relocating to Charlotte are moving into the inner neighborhoods such as Uptown, South End, and NoDa as opposed to the suburban areas. ....
I'm not here to prove anything to you. It is you who are telling us that Charlotte is developing just like Atlanta, even when the statistics I've provided show otherwise. Atlanta lost >77,000 over the last 40 years. Charlotte gains > 450,000 in the same period. If this doesn't tell you something then it's up to you to dig into the #'s. I've done my part. I've also proven that Charlotte is growing faster than the surrounding cities that were not picked by me. Too bad if they didn't meet your assumptions. It's also not up to me to keep responding to different incorrect assumptions.
This topic is about Charlotte's future. As I said earlier, I don't really care where ATL is headed, I have no interest in the place. The only important thing about it relative to this topic is how to avoid the horrendous mistakes it has made. I think we are doing a good job.
But I can get on a morning train in Charlotte and be in DC in the afternoon right at Union station which is also a big hub for the Metro. There is absolutely no traffic for me to deal with in going there.
The Carolinian train is sponsored by the NCDOT and originates in Charlotte. This route is being converted to high speed rail. This is a joint project between the NCDOT and VADOT.
There were considerations in running a similar service south to Atlanta several years ago. Yet the SCDOT and GADOT and the authorities in ATL had no interest in it, so the plans were dropped.
I'm not here to prove anything to you. It is you who are telling us that Charlotte is developing just like Atlanta, even when the statistics I've provided show otherwise. Atlanta lost >77,000 over the last 40 years. Charlotte gains > 450,000 in the same period. If this doesn't tell you something then it's up to you to dig into the #'s. I've done my part. I've also proven that Charlotte is growing faster than the surrounding cities that were not picked by me. Too bad if they didn't meet your assumptions. It's also not up to me to keep responding to different incorrect assumptions.
This topic is about Charlotte's future. As I said earlier, I don't really care where ATL is headed, I have no interest in the place. The only important thing about it relative to this topic is how to avoid the horrendous mistakes it has made. I think we are doing a good job.
But what exactly has Charlotte done to prevent making the same mistakes as Atlanta (serious question)? As Charlotte continues to grow, couldn't it potentially face some of the same issues? I mean, right now we have suburbs growing exponentially, one light rail line, an incomplete beltway, and two lanes each way on some of the most heavily traveled interstates in the area (although thankfully the traffic is still not anywhere close to as bad as Atlanta)...
.... I mean, right now we have suburbs growing exponentially, .....
Come back with some real statistics from the US Census then we will discuss it. Otherwise, this is an emotional statement. I've already shown how CLT is growing relative to a few places that an Atlanta forumer picked out.
I've proven everything I've stated. I don't feel like doing everyone else's homework too.
This topic is about Charlotte's future. As I said earlier, I don't really care where ATL is headed, I have no interest in the place. The only important thing about it relative to this topic is how to avoid the horrendous mistakes it has made. I think we are doing a good job.
As far as traffic goes--which is what this thread is about--I'm honestly not really seeing how. TOD will help drive some of the urban growth, but the size/capacity of light rail relative to metro Charlotte will only have minimal impact in the grand scheme of things. When looking at urbanized area densities--which is a MUCH more accurate gauge than city population with arbitrary boundaries--both Atlanta and Charlotte have similarly low numbers. When compared to its mass transit and highway system, I don't see how Charlotte comes out ahead.
Truth be told, outside of Portland, I'm not sure if there's ANY midsized metro in the country making truly significant strides in an effort to curb traffic woes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by frewroad
There were considerations in running a similar service south to Atlanta several years ago. Yet the SCDOT and GADOT and the authorities in ATL had no interest in it, so the plans were dropped.
From what I remember, it was SCDOT that had no interest in this and that was the holdup. I could be mistaken about that, but that was what I recalled.
Come back with some real statistics from the US Census then we will discuss it. Otherwise, this is an emotional statement. I've already shown how CLT is growing relative to a few places that an Atlanta forumer picked out.
I wasn't saying that the city of Charlotte wasn't growing. But the suburbs are growing as well...those two things are not mutually exclusive. From one of your earlier posts:
Quote:
Originally Posted by frewroad
Charlotte
2010 - 731,424
2011 - 751,087
1 yr change - 19,663
% change - 2.7%
Huntersville
2010 - 46,773
2011 - 48,048
1 year change - 1,275
% change - 2.7%
Yes, I know Huntersville is in Mecklenburg county, but it is still a suburb.
Last edited by GoPhils; 02-19-2013 at 05:40 PM..
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