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I don't want to start a "Atlanta vs Charlotte" thread.
But because both cities are popular destinations in the Southeast, and because both have similar density (in many, but not all, areas), the comparison makes sense.
I wonder: why is Atlanta's traffic so bad? Like Charlotte, they have a similar highway setup, and Atlanta's mass transit system appears to be effective.
So I ask: what developmental steps can Charlotte take, has already taken, or has not taken, to avoid the same conundrum - meaning traffic that kills productivity of residents, and trucks transporting goods?
Example of a step that Charlotte can take (future): LYNX Silver, Red lines.
Example of a step that Charlotte's already taken (already in place): the LYNX Blue Line.
Example of a step that Charlotte's not taken: center turning lanes on some primary/secondary roads; expanding the width of 77 is limited, because of the development that backs up against the side of the highway, etc.
Oh, ya know, maybe because Atlanta has 3 million more people...
And there is the problem. None of them want to actually live in Atlanta. The population of the city has been stagnant for decades. Hence you have 3M people living in a sprawl that spreads over dozens of counties that jam highways trying to commute to work. Though it has a heavy rail transit line, ATL's answer to this is to pave over the state in response. It's an example of everything wrong with city development.
Despite the fact the Atlanta MSA is at least 2.5X larger than Charlotte's MSA it's core county and city are growing much slower. Mecklenburg county has already surpassed Fulton in population density. Charlotte should be commended for not following ATL's example.
In CLT the vast majority of the people moving to the area move into the core county. In ATL the vast majority of the people move to the 28 county sprawl around the core county.
And there is the problem. None of them want to actually live in Atlanta. The population of the city has been stagnant for decades. Hence you have 3M people living in a sprawl that spreads over dozens of counties that jam highways trying to commute to work. Though it has a heavy rail transit line, ATL's answer to this is to pave over the state in response. It's an example of everything wrong with city development.
Despite the fact the Atlanta MSA is at least 2.5X larger than Charlotte's MSA it's core county and city are growing much slower. Mecklenburg county has already surpassed Fulton in population density. Charlotte should be commended for not following ATL's example.
In CLT the vast majority of the people moving to the area move into the core county. In ATL the vast majority of the people move to the 28 county sprawl around the core county.
I wonder: why is Atlanta's traffic so bad? Like Charlotte, they have a similar highway setup, .
Huh? Have you looked at a road map of the 2 cities lately? The highway, interstate setup is not even close other than a belt road which we are working to finally finish. Atlanta has GA 400, 285, 85, 20, 75 and countless other small expressways, most of them 4-10 lanes, yet they are still clogged M-F. No thank you !!
Charlotte has an awkward, offset setup. The center city is not even positioned in the middle of the outer belt. We have this giant quadrant in the SE with no good expressways (except for a tiny portion of Indep). We have no true east, west interstate, nothing substantial going SE until the Indep Freeway connects the Monroe bypass in the year,ummmmm, say 2020.
But, in Charlottes defense, given the metro population comparison of the 2, Atlanta's roadways were just as ridiculous when they were our size 40 years ago. In time, and I mean several decades from now, charlotte may have a decent road and rail system. But there is no comparison right now.
Atlanta is the crossroads to the south. I-75 rides straight up through downtown. I-20 rides straight through downtown. Through highways, they are connected to Chattanooga, Birmingham, Montgomery, Macon, Augusta, and Greenville. That is alot of connections. If you live there/visit, just check out the volume of trucks and out of GA license plates. And this is before any of the population who reside in the metro...
Charlotte will never get that bad since our city is a not a big pass through like Atlanta is.
This is what happens when one million people chooses to live in the main county (Fulton) while the other 5 million chooses to live in suburban counties. Such a set up is nearly impossible to serve properly with mass transit. Also, very few of the neighborhoods within such a metro are geared towards those who might want to commute via bicycles or walking.
Charlotte is no better...
When I drive around the likes of Ballantyne, University City, Concord Mills area, Steele Creek and the likes; I get the impression that Charlotte has learned NOTHING from Atlanta's example. Though Charlotte has seen some success with areas such as Noda, Southend, and Uptown; the metro as a whole is still addicted to the illusion that EVERBODY who moves here could (and should) have a BIG HOUSE and it won't cause any problems at all down the road.
Then there are those developers who think that row houses and apartments built on two-laned rural roads is "smart growth". Like it or not, metro Charlotte will need to grow up rather than out if we're to avoid the mistakes of cities like Atlanta, Dallas, and Houston. It says alot when the highest density areas of Charlotte (Southend, Uptown, etc) has less traffic issues than Ballantyne, Univ City, and Steele Creek. The reasons for this is that central areas of Charlotte have tons of walkers, bike riders, and transit riders; not everyone is behind the wheel of a SUV. I-485 areas of Charlotte are nearly 100% drivers and it shows. In addition to this, most of those I-485 drivers are SUVs with only one passenger (the driver). Talk about a waste of road space, but this is what people want and LOVE. This is also the life that many northeasterners moved "down south" to have.
Charlotte's road network is not somehing I'd ever brag about. I learned my way around Greensboro and Raleigh much quicker than Charlotte.
It's been a while since I was in Atlanta, but I felt like the area was segmented into pie-shaped pieces of city. Charlotte has a bit of this problem, that's why we see threads asking for one or both sides of 277 to be removed. Independece is something of a bifurcator too. But overall Charlotte seems more "whole".
Charlotte's road network is not somehing I'd ever brag about. I learned my way around Greensboro and Raleigh much quicker than Charlotte.
It's been a while since I was in Atlanta, but I felt like the area was segmented into pie-shaped pieces of city. Charlotte has a bit of this problem, that's why we see threads asking for one or both sides of 277 to be removed. Independece is something of a bifurcator too. But overall Charlotte seems more "whole".
The 277-haters are angry over what I-277 did to some of Charlotte's older central city neighborhoods; similar to what Independence Frwy has done to the eastside. The hate for these roads has very little to do with actual transportation. The harsh truth is that these roads are not "bad" and they actually help support Charlotte's future growth. What's "bad" about these roads are their designs. In the case of both, their bad designs (that make them difficult to cross by foot) is nothing that a series of pedestrian bridges and/or a freeway cap can't cure.
The southern end of I-277 (John Belk) already has a new wide sidewalk/bike lane along South Blvd and South Tryon. Tryon was also recently reduced down to only two lanes south of Stonewall to make things easier for the pedestrians. IMO, the whole pedestrian-unfriendliness of I-277-south has been addressed. Let's not forget that a light rail train crosses I-277-south as well.
Also, access to I-277 (John Belk to be exact) was cited as one of the main reasons behind this new "Transformative" project on the site of uptown's Goodyear. Proximity to John Belk was also the main reason behind Panthers Stadium's current location.
At this point in the game, the I-277-south haters should just keep quiet as far as I'm concerned; thankfully our city planners understand the value of having decent freeway access into and out of uptown. Could you imagine the freight hauling nightmare that taking away any portion of I-277 would cause? The people who wish to see part of I-277 gone don't think about THAT. They would though when they begin to see diesel-belching big rigs driving on tiny uptown streets because the freeway into uptown is no more.
And for those of you who don't think that many trucks make deliveries into uptown, think again. Uptown has 21 million sq/ft of office space; all of which was trucked in during construction of those offices. Uptown also has well over 200 restaurants; all of them getting their food trucked in and their garbage trucked out. The hospital supplies for areas such as Presby are (you guessed it) trucked in. Books and such for CPCC's main campus; yup, that's trucked in too. Even the gas at uptown area stations such as the Circle K on Graham and the Kangaroo on 3rd is trucked in. Yeah, and there are folks who wish to put all of those trucks onto tiny "pedestrian friendly" streets instead of I-277? LOL!!!!
Last edited by urbancharlotte; 02-17-2013 at 09:16 AM..
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