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The interior of the ATS was top-notch, no doubt about that. Every surface is soft-touch materials or plastered in leather, it looks wonderful.
I don't agree with your pricing simply because Cadillac is competing with the 3-Series which starts at $36K. The 3 Series tops off at $45k though while the ATS can run up to $48k without adding more options. Then again, I don't think the 3 Series is worth anywhere close to $45k for what you get.
Go test drive one if you still feel Cadillac is an inferior brand. Cadillac IS in the same league as Mercedes, BMW, Audi, and Lexus when it comes to the quality of engineering, materials, and craftsmanship. I find anything above $45K a ridiculous amount to pay for a compact car no matter what brand it is.
Actually it's the Bimmer that can start at $48k without options. That's exactly how much a 335i M Sport sedan will run before you check any options boxes. So as much of a sticker shock the ATS gives you, it's roughly in line with its direct competitor. The flip side of the problem is that people are more comfortable paying that for a BMW.
As for the XTS, I'd much rather have an optioned-out $50k ATS over a similarly-priced Buick Impala XTS.
The ATS 2.5 isn't worth mentioning, it's a car that never should have been built.
This honestly is what bugs me most about the ATS. It's like GM finally got serious about making a honest-to-God C-segment top-dog contender but weren't confident enough to resist building a throwaway base model to a price point that they could use as a marketing talking point. Or maybe it was a fuel economy marketing talking point they wanted. In any case, just build it, build it right, and price the right one competitively against its actual competitors.
I give it 2 model years tops before the 2.5 suffers the same fate as the Infiniti G25.
Cadillac has been pretty upfront that the ATS is not a Hyundai and that as a brand, they're tired of building Hyundais. The ATS 2.5 isn't worth mentioning, it's a car that never should have been built. The turbo, however, starts below $35k, including destination... or about $1500 less than a 328i. That's about what I expected it to be priced at. Similarly, don't expect the new CTS to come with a ~$10k discount on the 5.
Honestly, looking at it, all that really matters is how it drives to me. It loses on practicality to the 3-series... tight back seat, smaller trunk in a larger car. On the other hand, on the interior front I think it has better styling. And on the exterior I'm not really a fan of either the ATS or the new F30 so that's a wash.
Sure Cadillac is not Hyundai. However, Cadillac is to BMW the same as Hyundai is to Honda. The value choice.
Who knows how this is going to turn out for Cadillac. In the past they made the decision to sell a car (CTS) the size of the 5 series car at the 3 series prices and now they want to sell the ATS which is smaller (at least the back seat) than a 3 series at 3 series prices.
I already gave my review on the ATS based on my driving of the base model, but here are some observations based on what was said so far in the thread.
Value - In the other thread, I didn't really complain about the pricing other then it wasn't as low as I perceived it would have been for the model that I wanted. This is the perception that Cadillac needs to fight. However, I agree with Drover that they aren't going to make inroads into the market by being the "value" player anymore. They've done that for 8 years now with the CTS, it was time to get competitive. The ATS can command 3-series-esque pricing because from everything I've seen and experienced it IS as good and perhaps even better then the 3-series. This is essentially the car everyone has been clamoring and screaming for Cadillac to build. Like I said in the other thread though, the hardest thing for them right now on the sales floor is getting people to pick a new ATS vs. a CPO or even new CTS for the same or less money. This is where I could see people not seeing the value in the ATS, but that is something that will change when the new CTS comes out.
You also have to look at what BMW's actually cost in comparison. It's hard to do an easy comparo given the wide variability of trims and options in the 3-series. I've gone through quite a few different configurations and consistently come out with around at least a $1,500 price advantage in the Cadillac on the fully decked upper trims and that often will have some extra equipment then the 3-series. Cadillac's warranty is also better then BMW and includes a similar service plan. However, in the meat of the segment is where you really start to see some differences.
I took a blank "non-trim" 3-series and built it to match the ATS 2.0T Standard. To the Cadillac I added CUE and heated seats. Total price is $37,595. An as similarly equipped as possible 3-series costs $43,445. That's nearly a $6,000 difference. You can get a well equipped ATS in terms of things like leather, premium paint and materials for $36k. A base 3-series with actual leather and premium paint is going to run you just a tick under $40k. That seems to be the moral of the story when I played with the configurators. An ATS can actually be bought for $36k and be well equipped and sporty, you aren't really touching a 3-series for much under $40k.
There is also a "hidden" advantage in the ATS for those who want a manual. BMW charges the same for the auto that they do for the manual. Cadillac will take $1,180 off the price of the ATS if you pick the manual. Also, if you want the same "sport" features on your BMW auto that you get on the Cadillac, you need to tack on an extra $500 to the price.
Overall, when you actually spec the cars out, there is a real price difference that isn't apparent on the surface do to the myriad of ways BMW breaks their cars down into trimlines and bundles everything as an option.
The 2.5L ATS - This model really doesn't make sense to me, or really anyone else for that matter. It's obviously a price/value leader similar to what the Infiniti G25 or a FWD A4 would be. The rest of the car is the same and well done, but the powertrain just doesn't match the chassis. I agree with others that this trim will either die off or find itself with a different engine at some point. Personally, I think the 220hp turbo 4 of the base turbo Regal would have been a much better entry level option and far more competitive even if the price had to go up by a $1,000. It is painfully obvious though that Cadillac intends the 2.0L turbo models to make up the vast majority of sales. I think in a couple years, 2.5L ATS's are going to be huge used car bargains.
Cadillac's place in the luxury world - This topic has been discussed several times on here. It seems in general we all agree that there are three "tiers" of luxury cars out there:
I'm not adding brands like Jaguar, Land Rover and Porsche because they are more limited in scope. The ones listed basically cover multiple segments with their vehicles.
Cadillac is definitely trying to get into the Tier 1 club and I think they are doing a good job of working their way there. The CTS was always a compromise/value car. You got 5-series size for 3-series money. Cadillac has been slowly changing their perception over the past several years and I think with the intro of the ATS and the upcoming CTS redesign they are solidly moving up into Tier 1 even if the overall perception isn't 100% there yet, another couple years will tell for sure.
Infiniti on the other hand seems to be "stuck" in between and most likely always will be given their new vehicles. They are competing down with the Tier 3 brands on some models and then still trading on the value card against the Tier 1 brands. The G has simply never been anything more then a value choice relative to the 3-series. The dynamics, materials, fit/finish and execution were NEVER equal, but they didn't try to price it like they were.
I already gave my review on the ATS based on my driving of the base model, but here are some observations based on what was said so far in the thread.
Value - In the other thread, I didn't really complain about the pricing other then it wasn't as low as I perceived it would have been for the model that I wanted. This is the perception that Cadillac needs to fight. However, I agree with Drover that they aren't going to make inroads into the market by being the "value" player anymore. They've done that for 8 years now with the CTS, it was time to get competitive. The ATS can command 3-series-esque pricing because from everything I've seen and experienced it IS as good and perhaps even better then the 3-series. This is essentially the car everyone has been clamoring and screaming for Cadillac to build. Like I said in the other thread though, the hardest thing for them right now on the sales floor is getting people to pick a new ATS vs. a CPO or even new CTS for the same or less money. This is where I could see people not seeing the value in the ATS, but that is something that will change when the new CTS comes out.
You also have to look at what BMW's actually cost in comparison. It's hard to do an easy comparo given the wide variability of trims and options in the 3-series. I've gone through quite a few different configurations and consistently come out with around at least a $1,500 price advantage in the Cadillac on the fully decked upper trims and that often will have some extra equipment then the 3-series. Cadillac's warranty is also better then BMW and includes a similar service plan. However, in the meat of the segment is where you really start to see some differences.
I took a blank "non-trim" 3-series and built it to match the ATS 2.0T Standard. To the Cadillac I added CUE and heated seats. Total price is $37,595. An as similarly equipped as possible 3-series costs $43,445. That's nearly a $6,000 difference. You can get a well equipped ATS in terms of things like leather, premium paint and materials for $36k. A base 3-series with actual leather and premium paint is going to run you just a tick under $40k. That seems to be the moral of the story when I played with the configurators. An ATS can actually be bought for $36k and be well equipped and sporty, you aren't really touching a 3-series for much under $40k.
There is also a "hidden" advantage in the ATS for those who want a manual. BMW charges the same for the auto that they do for the manual. Cadillac will take $1,180 off the price of the ATS if you pick the manual. Also, if you want the same "sport" features on your BMW auto that you get on the Cadillac, you need to tack on an extra $500 to the price.
Overall, when you actually spec the cars out, there is a real price difference that isn't apparent on the surface do to the myriad of ways BMW breaks their cars down into trimlines and bundles everything as an option.
The 2.5L ATS - This model really doesn't make sense to me, or really anyone else for that matter. It's obviously a price/value leader similar to what the Infiniti G25 or a FWD A4 would be. The rest of the car is the same and well done, but the powertrain just doesn't match the chassis. I agree with others that this trim will either die off or find itself with a different engine at some point. Personally, I think the 220hp turbo 4 of the base turbo Regal would have been a much better entry level option and far more competitive even if the price had to go up by a $1,000. It is painfully obvious though that Cadillac intends the 2.0L turbo models to make up the vast majority of sales. I think in a couple years, 2.5L ATS's are going to be huge used car bargains.
Cadillac's place in the luxury world - This topic has been discussed several times on here. It seems in general we all agree that there are three "tiers" of luxury cars out there:
I'm not adding brands like Jaguar, Land Rover and Porsche because they are more limited in scope. The ones listed basically cover multiple segments with their vehicles.
Cadillac is definitely trying to get into the Tier 1 club and I think they are doing a good job of working their way there. The CTS was always a compromise/value car. You got 5-series size for 3-series money. Cadillac has been slowly changing their perception over the past several years and I think with the intro of the ATS and the upcoming CTS redesign they are solidly moving up into Tier 1 even if the overall perception isn't 100% there yet, another couple years will tell for sure.
Infiniti on the other hand seems to be "stuck" in between and most likely always will be given their new vehicles. They are competing down with the Tier 3 brands on some models and then still trading on the value card against the Tier 1 brands. The G has simply never been anything more then a value choice relative to the 3-series. The dynamics, materials, fit/finish and execution were NEVER equal, but they didn't try to price it like they were.
I'd say this is a fair evaluation. If the pricing discrepancy is near $6k in the trim segment that will be the volume seller then the ATS looks like an attractive proposition. I’m interested to see how well it sells and more importantly, how the Cadillac brand positions itself within the next five years. Increasing competition in any segment will benefit the consumer whether in pricing or quality of product.
The ATS is a respectable car, in the 2.0l and 3.6l trims. Why the 2.5 exists speaks to Cadillac's marketing problem, which is my main problem with the current regeneration of the brand. An ATS that's not far from the price of the Cadillac Park Avenue, er..I mean XTS, is counterintuitive, because the CTS is slated to be at a higher price point than the current model. Thus, the larger car is going to be less expensive than the mid-size offering because GM says so, via it's mantra that the XTS is not its flagship. Yet, GM has no flagship, and their small car is priced very close to the large car. Moreover, the race for more Cadillac-branded crossovers competes with itself. The Enclave sells very well, for example, and there is no current Cadillac counterpart, so it's not far from GM's habit of badge-engineering a solution to more short-term profits. If GM had truly reinvented the Cadillac brand, it would cease attempting to chase broader market segments than exist, and would have little overlap between its divisions in terms of price.
So, where does that leave the larger "not a flagship" sedan in the lineup? The XTS was designed for the traditional Cadillac buyer, and the fleet market as I have yet to see a car service that uses anything but a Cadillac or Lincoln sedan or SUV as the bread-and-butter car in their lineup. The Town Car was the preferred choice, but since it is no longer, for the sedans, it falls to Cadillac. The XTS should be a flagship Buick, but the fleet buyers would not buy it because the entrenched standard in the car service market is Cadillac or Lincoln, with a few Mercedes.
GM is sending mixed signals with respect to the Cadillac brand, which is why I feel the ATS should be a better value, especially in the 2.5l trim. Personally, I think the 2.5l is a joke for an ATS and should not have been included, but if it is, it should be at a better price point, about $5-8k less. In comparison, the C250 is an entry level vehicle with a 1.8l turbo, and while its interior has less expensive materials than higher end C's, it is generally well crafted, and the vehicle is solid; and, it stickers at $37k with a 7-speed automatic and a decent amount of standard equipment. BMW's new 3-Series has an 8-speed transmission and Mercedes C has a 7-speed, yet Cadillac fitted the ATS with a 6-speed, which competes with the current 3-Series and past Cs, but is not cutting edge, yet that is how Cadillac wants to be perceived.
The ATS should have debuted with the 2.0l turbo and 3.6l, with a promised V to come later. BMW does not always release the new M when the 3-Series is retooled, and Mercedes AMGs are not always delivered at the same time as the initial launch of the new Cs, so it would have been acceptable for Cadillac not to release it initially, but to have it come later. That business model is established in the class in which Cadillac wants to compete, but going back to the GM model of trying to be risk averse by not alienating any of its current customers in the hope of attracting new customers has caused it problems in the past. The 2.5l is evidence of that, in my mind, and it does undercut the perception of the ATS as true contender for an entry-level luxury vehicle, especially when competing with the entrenched BMW 3-Series. The ATS is a good car, one that I hope does not lose its way in GM marketing strategy, complete with incentives, although, at least GM has not as yet equipped it with a D'oro package to lure customers to the showroom.
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All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players: they have their exits and their entrances; and one man in his time plays many parts, his acts being seven ages.
~William Shakespeare (As You Like It Act II, Scene VII)
The ATS is a respectable car, in the 2.0l and 3.6l trims. Why the 2.5 exists speaks to Cadillac's marketing problem, which is my main problem with the current regeneration of the brand. An ATS that's not far from the price of the Cadillac Park Avenue, er..I mean XTS, is counterintuitive, because the CTS is slated to be at a higher price point than the current model. Thus, the larger car is going to be less expensive than the mid-size offering because GM says so, via it's mantra that the XTS is not its flagship. Yet, GM has no flagship, and their small car is priced very close to the large car. Moreover, the race for more Cadillac-branded crossovers competes with itself. The Enclave sells very well, for example, and there is no current Cadillac counterpart, so it's not far from GM's habit of badge-engineering a solution to more short-term profits. If GM had truly reinvented the Cadillac brand, it would cease attempting to chase broader market segments than exist, and would have little overlap between its divisions in terms of price.
So, where does that leave the larger "not a flagship" sedan in the lineup? The XTS was designed for the traditional Cadillac buyer, and the fleet market as I have yet to see a car service that uses anything but a Cadillac or Lincoln sedan or SUV as the bread-and-butter car in their lineup. The Town Car was the preferred choice, but since it is no longer, for the sedans, it falls to Cadillac. The XTS should be a flagship Buick, but the fleet buyers would not buy it because the entrenched standard in the car service market is Cadillac or Lincoln, with a few Mercedes.
GM is sending mixed signals with respect to the Cadillac brand, which is why I feel the ATS should be a better value, especially in the 2.5l trim. Personally, I think the 2.5l is a joke for an ATS and should not have been included, but if it is, it should be at a better price point, about $5-8k less. In comparison, the C250 is an entry level vehicle with a 1.8l turbo, and while its interior has less expensive materials than higher end C's, it is generally well crafted, and the vehicle is solid; and, it stickers at $37k with a 7-speed automatic and a decent amount of standard equipment. BMW's new 3-Series has an 8-speed transmission and Mercedes C has a 7-speed, yet Cadillac fitted the ATS with a 6-speed, which competes with the current 3-Series and past Cs, but is not cutting edge, yet that is how Cadillac wants to be perceived.
The ATS should have debuted with the 2.0l turbo and 3.6l, with a promised V to come later. BMW does not always release the new M when the 3-Series is retooled, and Mercedes AMGs are not always delivered at the same time as the initial launch of the new Cs, so it would have been acceptable for Cadillac not to release it initially, but to have it come later. That business model is established in the class in which Cadillac wants to compete, but going back to the GM model of trying to be risk averse by not alienating any of its current customers in the hope of attracting new customers has caused it problems in the past. The 2.5l is evidence of that, in my mind, and it does undercut the perception of the ATS as true contender for an entry-level luxury vehicle, especially when competing with the entrenched BMW 3-Series. The ATS is a good car, one that I hope does not lose its way in GM marketing strategy, complete with incentives, although, at least GM has not as yet equipped it with a D'oro package to lure customers to the showroom.
Very well said! The product mix and marketing are sending very mixed messages about who the brand is targeting and what it aspires to be. Premium brand on one end, budget on the other and then a strange FWD rebadged Buick somewhere off to the side.
Cadillac considers itself "The Standard of the World" They had that market perception decades ago, lost it and are trying to get it back. IF they are going to build a car to beat the 3, it is going to have to compete in every single way and from what I've read so far, it does.
But there's no way they are going to be able to do it and offer a bigger,faster more feature packed car for LESS money . People who really believe that aren't going to buy the Cadillac any way, they are going to continue to be brand snobs and buy the car they have their heart set on - magazine comparos, stats and even price aren't going to sway them. The BMW, from what I understand, is still going to be more expensive once YOU ACTUALLY GO TO THE DEALERSHIP and compare like equipped models. Trying to build one on the web vs one that's acutally built on a lot are two different things.
So, where does that leave the larger "not a flagship" sedan in the lineup? The XTS was designed for the traditional Cadillac buyer, and the fleet market as I have yet to see a car service that uses anything but a Cadillac or Lincoln sedan or SUV as the bread-and-butter car in their lineup. The Town Car was the preferred choice, but since it is no longer, for the sedans, it falls to Cadillac. The XTS should be a flagship Buick, but the fleet buyers would not buy it because the entrenched standard in the car service market is Cadillac or Lincoln, with a few Mercedes.
It is no secret what the XTS is for and that Cadillac is working on a "real" flagship. It has nothing to do with the existence of the ATS or who it targets. Real open minded buyers are not confused.
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