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There are legit arguments for EV - but saying they "priced in roughly the same band" ain't one of them. Frankly - there are NOT cheap EVs available. The "cheapest" EV is nearly twice the price as the cheapest gas car. If you want to contradict this C&D article - you will have to find TEN different EVs that are all less than 20K.
is a really easy thing to handle for the electrical grid.
If by grid you mean "power plant" and "high voltage lines" - you are mainly right.
If you mean your local transformer hanging on a pole by your house can charge 10 teslas at once - you are mainly wrong. Does that wire LOOK LIKE it can handle 400 or 500 amps for hours at a time? No? That's because it cannot.
There are legit arguments for EV - but saying they "priced in roughly the same band" ain't one of them. Frankly - there are NOT cheap EVs available. The "cheapest" EV is nearly twice the price as the cheapest gas car. If you want to contradict this C&D article - you will have to find TEN different EVs that are all less than 20K.
is a really easy thing to handle for the electrical grid.
If by grid you mean "power plant" and "high voltage lines" - you are mainly right.
If you mean your local transformer hanging on a pole by your house can charge 10 teslas at once - you are mainly wrong. Does that wire LOOK LIKE it can handle 400 or 500 amps for hours at a time? No? That's because it cannot.
Good point--I guess it depends on where we differ on what "roughly means". Perhaps it's better to say that there are EVs in the US available for less than half the average transaction price.
The links are also arguably off by the time I posted such. The 2023 Chevrolet Bolt and Bolt EUV had massive price cuts with starting MSRPs at $25,600 and $27,200 respectively. Now you can argue that it's premature to talk about MY2023, but Chevrolet also gave that discount to 2022 Bolt and Bolt EUV buyers as well and had been doing manufacturer's discounts at similar magnitudes for years. The Nissan Leaf has a higher MSRP $27,800, but Nissans are still eligible for the federal tax credit of $7,500 so the transaction price is substantially lower for the base model.
Meanwhile, the lowest on the list you made for cheapest gas car is the Chevrolet Spark. It's discontinued for MY2023, and MY2022 cost $14,595 according to your link. To someone who is going for bargains on new vehicles, you're right, that $6K difference with the Leaf (after tax credit) and $12k difference with the Bolt is probably a lot in that segment.
I think perhaps a more nuanced look at this would also include how EV pricing works in other models and the continued stripping away of the entry level model regardless of what powertrain type in the US market which has saw the removal of the Honda Fit, Toyota Yaris, and many others within recent years and now including the Chevrolet Spark. These sorts of entry level vehicles, ICE and EV, are still for sale in a lot of other markets. They've been steadily dying out of the US market though with the ones still available generally ones that had entered the market initially many years ago and so aren't yet discontinued. Given how recent EVs have been a noticeable part of the US market, it appears that it's possible these very inexpensive entry level subcompact hatchback/sedan segments will simply just not be introduced at all.
There are legit arguments for EV - but saying they "priced in roughly the same band" ain't one of them.
Woah woah, woah. Hold up here. You're conflating two things: EVs priced LIKE THEIR COMPETITION IN THE SAME CLASS, and EVs costing more than the cheapest ICE cars. Don't do that.
My Bolt, at $25k new is priced like it's ICE competition, which is the GTI and MINI Cooper S, not the Spark or Versa. Tesla Model 3s are priced like their ICE competition, which is the BMW 3 series, the Audi A4/S4 and the Mercedes C class. Compared like for like, they are priced like for like. So his statement is factually correct.
As a Bolt owner, I'll speak to that from experience. It has 200 hp and 266 lb ft of torque in a compact hatchback form factor. It's not a subcompact, and it's not a weak, slow econobox. You don't compare it to a Spark anymore than you'd compare a Rav 4 to a Trax.
Woah woah, woah. Hold up here. You're conflating two things: EVs priced LIKE THEIR COMPETITION IN THE SAME CLASS, and EVs costing more than the cheapest ICE cars. Don't do that.
My Bolt, at $25k new is priced like it's ICE competition, which is the GTI and MINI Cooper S, not the Spark or Versa. Tesla Model 3s are priced like their ICE competition, which is the BMW 3 series, the Audi A4/S4 and the Mercedes C class. Compared like for like, they are priced like for like. So his statement is factually correct.
As a Bolt owner, I'll speak to that from experience. It has 200 hp and 266 lb ft of torque in a compact hatchback form factor. It's not a subcompact, and it's not a weak, slow econobox. You don't compare it to a Spark anymore than you'd compare a Rav 4 to a Trax.
Yea, that's accurate. I think it is legitimate to talk about how the entry level market in general has been heavily pruned in the US market though. A few inexpensive ICE vehicles are still hanging on as they were introduced when the US market was just a bit more receptive to such, but no new such vehicles whether ICE or EV seem to be getting introduced.
Yea, that's accurate. I think it is legitimate to talk about how the entry level market in general has been heavily pruned in the US market though. A few inexpensive ICE vehicles are still hanging on as they were introduced when the US market was just a bit more receptive to such, but no new such vehicles whether ICE or EV seem to be getting introduced.
With the tax incentives (if they pass) we might be looking at BEVs below $20K next year.
Ultimately even if EVs are comparably priced to ICE models, even the cheapest BEVs require a Level II charger. I know there are people who believe otherwise, but I can't see taking car of even the simplest BEV without a dedicated parking space and Level II charger. I hear all those people who say " you have to go to a gasoline station today", but it's not the same thing. I go to the gasoline station every 9 days (give or take 2 days) and spend less than 10 minutes there.
2023 MINI SE Hardtop/Battery capacity 32.64 kWh
2022 Mazda MX-30 EV/Battery capacity 35.5 kWh
2023 Nissan LEAF/Battery capacity 40 kWh
If ICE vehicles are no longer available, I simply can't imagine a scenario where it isn't true that ~20% of the vehicles are BEV with batteries of 10 kWh or less (e-bikes, scooters, kick-scooters, etc.) which can be charged with 110V and an extension cord in less than 6-8 hours.
.... I know there are people who believe otherwise, but I can't see taking car of even the simplest BEV without a dedicated parking space and Level II charger. I hear all those people who say " you have to go to a gasoline station today", but it's not the same thing. I go to the gasoline station every 9 days (give or take 2 days) and spend less than 10 minutes there.
Bingo!!
And even if the technology can eventually allow an EV to be FULLY charged, in 15-20 minutes, it's still decades away, while the politicians are trying their hardest, to force the complete EV changeover on us within the next 6-8 years. And that isn't even accounting for the need to upgrade the entire nation's power grid, to be able to accept the additional load.....
And even if the technology can eventually allow an EV to be FULLY charged, in 15-20 minutes, it's still decades away, while the politicians are trying their hardest, to force the complete EV changeover on us within the next 6-8 years. And that isn't even accounting for the need to upgrade the entire nation's power grid, to be able to accept the additional load.....
15-20 minute fast charging is more like 5 years away, if even. Many already get 60% in 20 minutes. So on the road, full charging in minutes is coming.
If you’re referring to at home using Level 2, that’s inconsequential because it happens when the car is parked for extended periods anyway, ie, overnight.
Unlike your gas car that sits less than full most of the time, the ev fills every single time you plug it in at home. It’s a different dynamic that you have to grasp if you’re going to engage in these conversations. In fact its so convenient that most people set theirs to charge overnight. I rarely charge mine during the day because it simply isn’t necessary.
How many times does this all need to be repeated? The dynamic is totally different. You’re thinking along the lines of gas and applying that to EV’s which follow a different paradigm.
Unlike your gas car that sits less than full most of the time, the ev fills every single time you plug it in at home.
Leadfoot was responding to a comment that I made, so I will answer. He did contort my comment somewhat. What I said is that relying on public charging exclusively is unreasonable.
I am talking about the people who do not have access to a personal 240V plug at their home. Either because they rent, live in a condo without personal parking or power, or are homeless.
I merely pointed out that if you can offer them a budget EV with limited range (150 miles or less like we have today) at the same price as a gasoline vehicle, they would not choose the EV.
If there are no gasoline cars because of regulations then tens of millions of people will have to switch to 1, 2, or 3 wheel vehicles where a 10kWh or smaller battery is functional. You can plug a 10kWh battery into 110V outlet and charge it overnight.
What’s the difference it’s still a GM vehicle built in a GM assembly plant. Just because it’s made in Mexico doesn’t mean it’s made any different if it was assembled in the states. All automakers build vehicles in Mexico. Vehicles are assembled all over the world.
I hear you. I know even with imports there are people who swear the Japanese cars assembled in Japan and the German cars assembled in Germany are the best. While this *might* be true, it seems to me anyway that it's just as likely it's just internet legend or bigotry/nationalism as any real superiority of the workers from the home countries.
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