12-17-2010, 10:26 AM
Location: Land of debt and Corruption
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Philbert
I don't have a problem with eliminating the "automatic honors credit" for those scoring well on the 8th grade placement test and requiring that they "earn" credit through assessments made in class.
The kids who get tracked into Honors English based on their 8th grade standardized test scores
still have to take and pass Honors English to earn honors credit . It's not automatically granted to them without having done the coursework; however, if they take Honors English and pass it, they get honors credit. It is earned so to suggest otherwise is disingenuous.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Philbert
I also think it's a good thing that they're eliminating the situation where you could earn the same honors credit by doing well in an easier class.
I will agree. That sounds like another (previous) short-sighted attempt to allow honors credit for students who didn't make it into honors English.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Philbert
The real issue that's worth debating is the decision to provide the honors-level curriculum to all incoming freshman reading at grade level, and not grouping classrooms, in some fashion, based on 8th grade test results.
And what happens when down the road when we see the same racial make-up reflected in those kids who will go the extra mile to earn the honors credit vs. those who cannot or choose not to? I honestly fail to see how this move will increase the #'s of minority students in the upper echelon simply by having them take more rigorous courses. What if the exact opposite happens and we see large numbers of minorities failing this new Humanities class? What then?
There comes a point in time when the school will need to track kids into differing tracks. In the past, they have used the 8th grade standardized test scores, but now they don't agree with the racial make-up from those test results. With this new proposal, all they are doing is waiting a year to make that decision after having all kids take honors-level courses and seeing which kids actually earn the honors credit. I'm willing to bet it will be the same kids doing the same things and the timing of it all means nothing.
Last edited by AuDiBelle; 12-17-2010 at 10:34 AM ..
12-17-2010, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
whatyousay
I'll ask this because I really do not know... are there any blacks on the school board, and if so, was this new proposal (to eliminate freshmen honors courses) their idea to "level the playing field"? If not, then I don't know who this ubiquitous group of blacks are that you are referring to in the decision to eliminate the honors English course at ETHS. What do the black parents of high achieving students say about this proposal?
I understand that and agree, but you cannot adequately serve the honors students by eliminating courses. The upward push for the lower achievers should not come at the expense of the high achievers.
It is not the responsibility of the high achievers to enrich the experiences of the rest. That's the responsibility of the teachers and the school to provide appropriate education and enrichment for all students.
Again, you cannot bring up the bottom by cutting off the top... especially if no effort is made to investigate WHY minority kids aren't excelling at the same rates. Why does offering honors students appropriate courses affect any other group of students? Why do you think it comes at the expense of anyone else? I suppose an argument could be made that $$ allocated for teaching the high level students takes away money from the rest, but I don't buy that. These kids will be in a class regardless of whether it's an honors English or regular English.
I could not have said this better.
12-17-2010, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
edsg25
But this one austencibly had too many bells and whistles to make it through.
It is a truth universally acknowledged that a school district in posession of a good fortune must be in seach of a new addition.
NT wanted all the bells and whistles. Frankly, after just paying for the new 30,000 square foot day care center for the teachers kids, I had no interest in funding an underground heated garage.
12-17-2010, 11:04 AM
Location: Oak Park, IL
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One thing I find weird about Illinois is that elementary/middle schools are usually in different school districts than high schools. It makes for unnecessary bureaucracy/wastes tax dollars, and the diffusion of responsibility makes it hard to fix problems that start in elementary school but don't fully manifest till high school.
12-17-2010, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
whatyousay
The kids who get tracked into Honors English based on their 8th grade standardized test scores still have to take and pass Honors English to earn honors credit . It's not automatically granted to them without having done the coursework; however, if they take Honors English and pass it, they get honors credit. It is earned so to suggest otherwise is disingenuous.
Under the old system, those tracked into Honors English based on 8th grade test scores could get a D in the class, but still received honors credit. Now, that won't be possible. However, I do take your point that the majority of previously tracked students were "earning" honors credit by doing the coursework. It sounds as though the new assessment based approach to granting honors credit will be different from how grades are earned though.
Last edited by Philbert; 12-17-2010 at 11:26 AM ..
12-17-2010, 01:41 PM
Location: Land of debt and Corruption
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
edsg25
It might not be a responsibility but it is an undeniable asset. Students are enriched by the students that they take classes with. When you skim off the top of the class, you are affecting the quality of learning.
Students learn from each other and the interactions that take place in class. Classrooms in high schools are not lecture rooms; the interaction between students is often as important as the interaction with the teacher.
What an awful English class or social studies class it would be without the insight and shared commentary of the highest achieving students.
Also, schools tend to pull out at the top, not at the bottom. If there are tracks, they are usually two. The upper takes off the cream of the crop. Who suffers? The high average and the middle because the composition of the class is weighed downward.
It may be an undeniable asset, but at what price? Should the high level learners bear the price of enriching the lower level learners? At what point is that fair. You cannot fairly take away the educational opportunities of one student to enrich the educational experience of another. That sounds eerily like wealth redistribution only on the intellectual level. And it's not like the high level learners are segregated from the rest of the student body... we are talking about TWO courses, English and Biology. They are all clumped together for many other classes.
And the composition of the class should not be weighted downward. There are still remedial classes for the lower functioning students who require extra help. All this does is more tightly focus the levels and make the teachers' jobs easier. They are teaching to the middle ~60% on the bell curve instead of the middle and upper ~80% (assuming the bottom 20% are in remedial classes and the upper 10% are in honors).
I still stand by the fact that it isn't the high level learner's responsibility to enrich anyone else's education other than their own. If my school district was attempting to basically steal educational opportunities from my children to enrich the education of others, I would pull my kids out of there immediately. I'm sure many ETHS feel the same way. That in itself is going to downward weight the overall student body moreso than allowing honors courses.
12-17-2010, 02:52 PM
Location: Land of debt and Corruption
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
edsg25
Tough call on this one. One can make an argument on both sides of tracking issues. In you have to remember that if you pull out the top, you are affecting kids who are not in that group. For example, the high average is definitely hurt by the process as the composition of their classes are often worsened...both academically and behaviorally....by who is pulled out.
But the lower quartile is also being pulled out, so there is no IQ shift going on. Do you understand a bell curve? When you remove the top 10% and the bottom 10%, that has essentially no effect on the overall average of the remainder. If you only remove the top (or bottom) and not the other, then you will see an IQ shift.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
edsg25
So when it comes to balancing the "right" anyone has to a quality education, you need to consider the effect that the groupings have on those who are "left behind."
On this, we will not agree. I believe in personal responsibility and merit based placements, whereas you appear to be more for affirmative actions. I respect your opinion, but I don't agree with it one iota for reason too numerous to list and I don't want to hijack the thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
edsg25
As noted, I hardly think this is a fair society. So to my way of thinking, many of the white students who get into higher level classes do so because of opportunities that have been brought through socio-economic groupings. the equitities were well in place before the kids entered freshmen level honors level classes.
Again, this would be no place to list those inequities for they are considerable and many have come from prior inequities that may not exist today not being addressed earlier. I may not be getting that across but so many of ill effects of race are lingering.
If this society was doing the right thing on the issue of race, you wouldn't see the disparity between the academic progress of whites and Asians when compared to that of blacks and hispanics.
As noted, I realize you don't agree with me. I'm not trying to convince you. I'm just telling you my spin on it. I realize yours is completely different.
No, society is not fair. Life is not fair. That was one of the first lessons I learned as a child. I see where you're trying to take this and at the outset I do agree. However, I vehemently oppose giving additional "aid" (loosely defined) to one specific group if that aid comes at the price of another group. Evanston has been an ongoing "experiment" of racial equities for years. Evanston has tried and tried and tried to overcome and equalize the differences in the outcomes between different races, and so far, none of their proposals have succeeded in doing that. The white and asian kids keep occupying the upper echelon and the blacks (and increasingly hispanics too) have continued to come out on the bottom in spite of Evanston's best efforts to reverse that trend. Until the root of the problem is discovered and addressed, that won't change with this silly proposal to eliminate Honors English.
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People in Group quarters - Other types of correctional institutions (%)
People in Group quarters - Nursing homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospitals/wards, hospices, and schools for the handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospitals/wards and hospices for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospices or homes for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Military hospitals or wards for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Other hospitals or wards for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospitals or wards for drug/alcohol abuse (%)
People in Group quarters - Mental (Psychiatric) hospitals or wards (%)
People in Group quarters - Schools, hospitals, or wards for the mentally retarded (%)
People in Group quarters - Schools, hospitals, or wards for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Institutions for the deaf (%)
People in Group quarters - Institutions for the blind (%)
People in Group quarters - Orthopedic wards and institutions for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Wards in general hospitals for patients who have no usual home elsewhere (%)
People in Group quarters - Wards in military hospitals for patients who have no usual home elsewhere (%)
People in Group quarters - Juvenile institutions (%)
People in Group quarters - Long-term care (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for abused, dependent, and neglected children (%)
People in Group quarters - Residential treatment centers for emotionally disturbed children (%)
People in Group quarters - Training schools for juvenile delinquents (%)
People in Group quarters - Short-term care, detention or diagnostic centers for delinquent children (%)
People in Group quarters - Type of juvenile institution unknown (%)
People in Group quarters - Noninstitutionalized population (%)
People in Group quarters - College dormitories (includes college quarters off campus) (%)
People in Group quarters - Military quarters (%)
People in Group quarters - On base (%)
People in Group quarters - Barracks, unaccompanied personnel housing (UPH), (Enlisted/Officer), ;and similar group living quarters for military personnel (%)
People in Group quarters - Transient quarters for temporary residents (%)
People in Group quarters - Military ships (%)
People in Group quarters - Group homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes or halfway houses for drug/alcohol abuse (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the mentally ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the mentally retarded (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Other group homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Religious group quarters (%)
People in Group quarters - Dormitories (%)
People in Group quarters - Agriculture workers' dormitories on farms (%)
People in Group quarters - Job Corps and vocational training facilities (%)
People in Group quarters - Other workers' dormitories (%)
People in Group quarters - Crews of maritime vessels (%)
People in Group quarters - Other nonhousehold living situations (%)
People in Group quarters - Other noninstitutional group quarters (%)
Residents speaking English at home (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Foreign born (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Foreign born (%)
Residents speaking other language at home (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Foreign born (%)
Class of Workers - Employee of private company (%)
Class of Workers - Self-employed in own incorporated business (%)
Class of Workers - Private not-for-profit wage and salary workers (%)
Class of Workers - Local government workers (%)
Class of Workers - State government workers (%)
Class of Workers - Federal government workers (%)
Class of Workers - Self-employed workers in own not incorporated business and Unpaid family workers (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Utility gas (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Bottled, tank, or LP gas (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Electricity (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Fuel oil, kerosene, etc. (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Coal or coke (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Wood (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Solar energy (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Other fuel (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - No fuel used (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Utility gas (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Bottled, tank, or LP gas (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Electricity (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Fuel oil, kerosene, etc. (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Coal or coke (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Wood (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Solar energy (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Other fuel (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - No fuel used (%)
Armed forces status - In Armed Forces (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian - Veteran (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian - Nonveteran (%)
Fatal accidents locations in years 2005-2021
Fatal accidents locations in 2005
Fatal accidents locations in 2006
Fatal accidents locations in 2007
Fatal accidents locations in 2008
Fatal accidents locations in 2009
Fatal accidents locations in 2010
Fatal accidents locations in 2011
Fatal accidents locations in 2012
Fatal accidents locations in 2013
Fatal accidents locations in 2014
Fatal accidents locations in 2015
Fatal accidents locations in 2016
Fatal accidents locations in 2017
Fatal accidents locations in 2018
Fatal accidents locations in 2019
Fatal accidents locations in 2020
Fatal accidents locations in 2021
Alcohol use - People drinking some alcohol every month (%)
Alcohol use - People not drinking at all (%)
Alcohol use - Average days/month drinking alcohol
Alcohol use - Average drinks/week
Alcohol use - Average days/year people drink much
Audiometry - Average condition of hearing (%)
Audiometry - People that can hear a whisper from across a quiet room (%)
Audiometry - People that can hear normal voice from across a quiet room (%)
Audiometry - Ears ringing, roaring, buzzing (%)
Audiometry - Had a job exposure to loud noise (%)
Audiometry - Had off-work exposure to loud noise (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Has high blood pressure (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Checking blood pressure at home (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Frequently checking blood cholesterol (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Has high cholesterol level (%)
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on food at supermarket/grocery store
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on food at other stores
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on eating out
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on carryout/delivered foods
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on food at supermarket/grocery store (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on food at other stores (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on eating out (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on carryout/delivered foods (%)
Current Health Status - General health condition (%)
Current Health Status - Blood donors (%)
Current Health Status - Has blood ever tested for HIV virus (%)
Current Health Status - Left-handed people (%)
Dermatology - People using sunscreen (%)
Diabetes - Diabetics (%)
Diabetes - Had a blood test for high blood sugar (%)
Diabetes - People taking insulin (%)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Diet health (%)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Milk product consumption (# of products/month)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Meals not home prepared (#/week)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Meals from fast food or pizza place (#/week)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Ready-to-eat foods (#/month)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Frozen meals/pizza (#/month)
Drug Use - People that ever used marijuana or hashish (%)
Drug Use - Ever used hard drugs (%)
Drug Use - Ever used any form of cocaine (%)
Drug Use - Ever used heroin (%)
Drug Use - Ever used methamphetamine (%)
Health Insurance - People covered by health insurance (%)
Kidney Conditions-Urology - Avg. # of times urinating at night
Medical Conditions - People with asthma (%)
Medical Conditions - People with anemia (%)
Medical Conditions - People with psoriasis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with overweight (%)
Medical Conditions - Elderly people having difficulties in thinking or remembering (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever received blood transfusion (%)
Medical Conditions - People having trouble seeing even with glass/contacts (%)
Medical Conditions - People with arthritis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with gout (%)
Medical Conditions - People with congestive heart failure (%)
Medical Conditions - People with coronary heart disease (%)
Medical Conditions - People with angina pectoris (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had heart attack (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had stroke (%)
Medical Conditions - People with emphysema (%)
Medical Conditions - People with thyroid problem (%)
Medical Conditions - People with chronic bronchitis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with any liver condition (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had cancer or malignancy (%)
Mental Health - People who have little interest in doing things (%)
Mental Health - People feeling down, depressed, or hopeless (%)
Mental Health - People who have trouble sleeping or sleeping too much (%)
Mental Health - People feeling tired or having little energy (%)
Mental Health - People with poor appetite or overeating (%)
Mental Health - People feeling bad about themself (%)
Mental Health - People who have trouble concentrating on things (%)
Mental Health - People moving or speaking slowly or too fast (%)
Mental Health - People having thoughts they would be better off dead (%)
Oral Health - Average years since last visit a dentist
Oral Health - People embarrassed because of mouth (%)
Oral Health - People with gum disease (%)
Oral Health - General health of teeth and gums (%)
Oral Health - Average days a week using dental floss/device
Oral Health - Average days a week using mouthwash for dental problem
Oral Health - Average number of teeth
Pesticide Use - Households using pesticides to control insects (%)
Pesticide Use - Households using pesticides to kill weeds (%)
Physical Activity - People doing vigorous-intensity work activities (%)
Physical Activity - People doing moderate-intensity work activities (%)
Physical Activity - People walking or bicycling (%)
Physical Activity - People doing vigorous-intensity recreational activities (%)
Physical Activity - People doing moderate-intensity recreational activities (%)
Physical Activity - Average hours a day doing sedentary activities
Physical Activity - Average hours a day watching TV or videos
Physical Activity - Average hours a day using computer
Physical Functioning - People having limitations keeping them from working (%)
Physical Functioning - People limited in amount of work they can do (%)
Physical Functioning - People that need special equipment to walk (%)
Physical Functioning - People experiencing confusion/memory problems (%)
Physical Functioning - People requiring special healthcare equipment (%)
Prescription Medications - Average number of prescription medicines taking
Preventive Aspirin Use - Adults 40+ taking low-dose aspirin (%)
Reproductive Health - Vaginal deliveries (%)
Reproductive Health - Cesarean deliveries (%)
Reproductive Health - Deliveries resulted in a live birth (%)
Reproductive Health - Pregnancies resulted in a delivery (%)
Reproductive Health - Women breastfeeding newborns (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that had a hysterectomy (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that had both ovaries removed (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever taken birth control pills (%)
Reproductive Health - Women taking birth control pills (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever used Depo-Provera or injectables (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever used female hormones (%)
Sexual Behavior - People 18+ that ever had sex (vaginal, anal, or oral) (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had vaginal sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever performed oral sex on a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had anal sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had any sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had vaginal sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever performed oral sex on a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had anal sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had any kind of sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first had sex
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female vaginal sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first performed oral sex on a woman (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of woman performed oral sex on in lifetime (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male anal sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first performed oral sex on a man (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male oral sex partners in lifetime (18+)
Sexual Behavior - People using protection when performing oral sex (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of times people have vaginal or anal sex a year
Sexual Behavior - People having sex without condom (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male vaginal sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Circumcised males 18+ (%)
Sleep Disorders - Average hours sleeping at night
Sleep Disorders - People that has trouble sleeping (%)
Smoking-Cigarette Use - People smoking cigarettes (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ having problems with smell (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ having problems with taste (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had wisdom teeth removed (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had tonsils teeth removed (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had a loss of consciousness because of a head injury (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had a broken nose or other serious injury to face or skull (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had two or more sinus infections (%)
Weight - Average height (inches)
Weight - Average weight (pounds)
Weight - Average BMI
Weight - People that are obese (%)
Weight - People that ever were obese (%)
Weight - People trying to lose weight (%)