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I don't know that NYC is "significantly" milder. And I notice you didn't mention Boston.
The fact that you don't know doesn't mean it isn't, because it is. If you think NYC winter is as harsh as Chicago then I suggest you visit NYC in the winter. I didn't mention Boston b/c that is closer to upper New England. Tit for tat I'd say it is less of a winter than Chicago still, more snow on average, but milder due to moderating effect of the atlantic with less dips into low temperatures, can just look at data.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heyooooo
From Washington to Boston, each city averages 10 more inches of snow than the other going up 95. In recent years, at least for a few, they have gotten more snow than Chicago. Especially NYC, Boston and Philly.
Theyre all mild, but id agree. "Significantly" more mild? 5-10 degrees is not significantly more mild.
Theres no difference between 0-10. No difference between 90-100. Theyre both oppressively frigid and hot.
False, because those are averages. False again, b/c the 10 degrees difference on the east coast is moderated and you don't get the wild dips into low temps. A few years is not good data. There are years when DC only gets 1-2 inches of snow for the entire winter compadre. You are also not considering the length of the winter, length of times between first/last frost, etc. Chicago sees nightly lows below 32 for almost 6 months out of the year. Meaning that low is going to be lowest in the early morning hours, so you'll still feel it.
The fact that you don't know doesn't mean it isn't, because it is. If you think NYC winter is as harsh as Chicago then I suggest you visit NYC in the winter. I didn't mention Boston b/c that is closer to upper New England. Tit for tat I'd say it is less of a winter than Chicago still, more snow on average, but milder due to moderating effect of the atlantic with less dips into low temperatures, can just look at data.
False, because those are averages. False again, b/c the 10 degrees difference on the east coast is moderated and you don't get the wild dips into low temps. A few years is not good data. There are years when DC only gets 1-2 inches of snow for the entire winter compadre. You are also not considering the length of the winter, length of times between first/last frost, etc. Chicago sees nightly lows below 32 for almost 6 months out of the year. Meaning that low is going to be lowest in the early morning hours, so you'll still feel it.
Its not as harsh on paper, but its still a ****ing bad winter, dude. The effect the buildings have on wind in the city is brutal. Same in Chicago. Most NYers I know dont go out/hate going out in the winter time in the city.
My point is, winter is winter. ~5-10 temperature variance is not much at all when youre cold.
Lows is going to be the lowest in the early morning hours? No ****. You dont need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.
Right, and judging by the last few years and intensity of storms, the Northeast has had it worse than Chicago has. That moderating effect from the ocean keeps it more mild, but also is a player in Nor'easters as well, which Chicago doesnt get. Hurricanes and Nor'easters in one months time just a few months ago. Nobody ever talks about that though.
I go by designated winter months of Dec/Jan/Feb considering those are the thick of winter, esp January and February. March most places are milder. December, colder.
Nightly lows of 32 for almost 6 months? No. We dont even get that and we are colder on average than Chicago is. Theres greater temperature extremes in the Midwest but Chicago does not get 6 months of lows below freezing. Youre grossly exaggerating here.
Its not as harsh on paper, but its still a ****ing bad winter, dude. The effect the buildings have on wind in the city is brutal. Same in Chicago. Most NYers I know dont go out/hate going out in the winter time in the city.
My point is, winter is winter. ~5-10 temperature variance is not much at all when youre cold.
Lows is going to be the lowest in the early morning hours? No ****. You dont need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.
Right, and judging by the last few years and intensity of storms, the Northeast has had it worse than Chicago has. That moderating effect from the ocean keeps it more mild, but also is a player in Nor'easters as well, which Chicago doesnt get. Hurricanes and Nor'easters in one months time just a few months ago. Nobody ever talks about that though.
I go by designated winter months of Dec/Jan/Feb considering those are the thick of winter, esp January and February. March most places are milder. December, colder.
Nightly lows of 32 for almost 6 months? No. We dont even get that and we are colder on average than Chicago is. Theres greater temperature extremes in the Midwest but Chicago does not get 6 months of lows below freezing. Youre grossly exaggerating here.
I'm definitely not exaggerating. You should look at the data and see for yourself. Look at a 10 year set of data at least. You will see the difference. Record the number of days the East Coast cities hit below below 20, 10, below 0 and so on and so forth, the wild swings that become uncomfortable that the upper midwest/great lakes get, but the east coast doesn't b/c the appalachians and atlantic ocean usually protect them. It is significantly higher than the cities I mentioned. A 10 degree difference means the difference is a big deal once it reaches a certain level of comfort level. So somebody won't notice a big difference between 60-70. But that difference is noticed when one city is say an average high of 42 and low of 29, and the other is 29 and low of 15. From early november to mid april the night lows on *average* are at or below freezing, is it consistent? No of course not but it averages that. That is almost 6 months, i.e., almost half the year, meaning ice will form on sidewalks, it will snow instead of rain, and it will cause plants to die. Those 10 degrees change a lot of what you actually see and feel in the weather. Personally I think averages shouldn't be looked at for calling one place to have brutal or less brutal temps. I also disagree that difference in 10 degrees at the high end is worse. That's like the difference in average high between Chicago and Orlando, trust me for somebody who has lived in them, there is a huge difference in a summer that is averaging 85 every day and one that is averaging 95 everyday.
Noreasters are historically more rare than lots of average snow, that is why in DC for instance you'll see ~5 inches of snow for instance pretty often some years (for the entire winter), then you'll get like one snow fall that goes to 20 something inches. Everybody knows that Chicago gets most of it snow falls by the accumulation of lots of 1-2 inch snows compounded, and has rarer large snow falls. Well all those 1-2 inch snows and averaging close to 30 days of snow a year where some of the east coast cities average under 10 adds up. Go on weather underground, you can verify my facts day by day back to the 70s which will give a nice 30-40 year data set, which supposedly is when weather shifts happen.
Here is DC, just an example peer cities average snow fall. And snow is only one aspect.
You can see the last 100+ years. It looks nothing like that dataset of Chicago b/c it is packed with years with very little to almost non existent snow.
And as you said, the NE *does* get noreasters that Chicago doesn't, but that is why I am saying those numbers look even higher some years than they really should be b/c one or two storms can dump a ton of snow, but the rest of the time it isn't really like that. The NE cities often have daily snowfall records almost double what Chicago has ever seen.
But back to ChiNaan and mine major point, Chicago is colder than most places to most people in this country, you can't just compare it to other crappy places weather wise around the Great Lakes.
Just to prove this, I'll take a look at what people consider mid size to major "major" cities, lets say, a metro over 2 million for instance. I don't care what people up in Billings, Montana are experiencing, I'm sure it's terrible, because relatively few people live there and people from there aren't likely to move to Chicago anyway. So let's look at cities that people often have experience with and transfer from. That's 29 cities and 123 million people, not even including the others in those states which I estimate would bring the numbers up to about 3/4 of the country, adding in the totality of populated states.
29 Kansas City, MO-KS MSA 2,052,676 2,035,334 +0.85% Kansas City-Overland Park-Kansas City, MO-KS CSA
28 Cleveland-Elyria-Mentor, OH MSA 2,068,283 2,077,240 −0.43% Cleveland-Akron-Elyria, OH CSA
27 Cincinnati-Middletown, OH-KY-IN MSA 2,138,038 2,130,151 +0.37% Cincinnati-Middletown-Wilmington, OH-KY-IN CSA
26 Orlando-Kissimmee-Sanford, FL MSA 2,171,360 2,134,411 +1.73% Orlando-Deltona-Daytona Beach, FL CSA
25 Sacramento–Arden-Arcade–Roseville, CA MSA 2,176,235 2,149,127 +1.26% Sacramento–Arden-Arcade–Yuba City, CA-NV CSA
24 San Antonio-New Braunfels, TX MSA 2,194,927 2,142,508 +2.45%
23 Portland-Vancouver-Hillsboro, OR-WA MSA 2,262,605 2,226,009 +1.64%
22 Pittsburgh, PA MSA 2,359,746 2,356,285 +0.15% Pittsburgh-New Castle, PA CSA
21 Denver-Aurora-Broomfield, CO MSA 2,599,504 2,543,482 +2.20% Denver-Aurora-Boulder, CO CSA
20 Baltimore-Towson, MD MSA 2,729,110 2,710,489 +0.69% Washington-Baltimore-Northern Virginia, DC-MD-VA-WV CSA
19 St. Louis, MO-IL MSA 2,817,355 2,812,896 +0.16% St. Louis-St. Charles-Farmington, MO-IL CSA
18 Tampa-St. Petersburg-Clearwater, FL MSA 2,824,724 2,783,243 +1.49%
17 San Diego-Carlsbad-San Marcos, CA MSA 3,140,069 3,095,313 +1.45%
16 Minneapolis-St. Paul-Bloomington, MN-WI MSA 3,318,486 3,279,833 +1.18% Minneapolis-St. Paul-St. Cloud, MN-WI CSA
15 Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue, WA MSA 3,500,026 3,439,809 +1.75% Seattle-Tacoma-Olympia, WA CSA
14 Phoenix-Mesa-Glendale, AZ MSA 4,263,236 4,192,887 +1.68%
13 Detroit-Warren-Livonia, MI MSA 4,285,832 4,296,250 −0.24% Detroit-Warren-Flint, MI CSA
12 Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario, CA MSA 4,304,997 4,224,851 +1.90% Los Angeles-Long Beach-Riverside, CA CSA
11 San Francisco-Oakland-Fremont, CA MSA 4,391,037 4,335,391 +1.28% San Jose-San Francisco-Oakland, CA CSA
10 Boston-Cambridge-Quincy, MA-NH MSA 4,591,112 4,552,402 +0.85% Boston-Worcester-Manchester, MA-RI-NH CSA
9 Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Marietta, GA MSA 5,359,205 5,268,860 +1.71% Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Gainesville, GA-AL CSA
8 Miami-Fort Lauderdale-Pompano Beach, FL MSA 5,670,125 5,564,635 +1.90%
7 Washington-Arlington-Alexandria, DC-VA-MD-WV MSA 5,703,948 5,582,170 +2.18% Washington-Baltimore-Northern Virginia, DC-MD-VA-WV CSA
6 Philadelphia-Camden-Wilmington, PA-NJ-DE-MD MSA 5,992,414 5,965,343 +0.45% Philadelphia-Camden-Vineland, PA-NJ-DE-MD CSA
5 Houston-Sugar Land-Baytown, TX MSA 6,086,538 5,946,800 +2.35% Houston-Baytown-Huntsville, TX CSA
4 Dallas-Fort Worth-Arlington, TX MSA 6,526,548 6,371,773 +2.43% Dallas-Fort Worth, TX CSA
3 Chicago-Joliet-Naperville, IL-IN-WI MSA 9,504,753 9,461,105 +0.46% Chicago-Naperville-Michigan City, IL-IN-WI CSA
2 Los Angeles-Long Beach-Santa Ana, CA MSA 12,944,801 12,828,837 +0.90% Los Angeles-Long Beach-Riverside, CA CSA
1 New York-Northern New Jersey-Long Island, NY-NJ-PA MSA 19,015,900 18,897,109 +0.63% New York-Newark-Bridgeport, NY-NJ-CT-PA CSA
There is only one city on that list that has a worse winter than Chicago, and that's Minneapolis. So out of the largest 28 other metropolitan areas in the country, only one of those possible relocation would consider Chicago having a milder winter than where they came from. So is it any wonder that people, and especially a site like city data that most people come from big cities would talk about the "winters" of Chicago?
I'm definitely not exaggerating. You should look at the data and see for yourself. Look at a 10 year set of data at least. You will see the difference. Record the number of days the East Coast cities hit below below 20, 10, below 0 and so on and so forth, the wild swings that become uncomfortable that the upper midwest/great lakes get, but the east coast doesn't b/c the appalachians and atlantic ocean usually protect them. It is significantly higher than the cities I mentioned. A 10 degree difference means the difference is a big deal once it reaches a certain level of comfort level. So somebody won't notice a big difference between 60-70. But that difference is noticed when one city is say an average high of 42 and low of 29, and the other is 29 and low of 15. From early november to mid april the night lows on *average* are at or below freezing, is it consistent? No of course not but it averages that. That is almost 6 months, i.e., almost half the year, meaning ice will form on sidewalks, it will snow instead of rain, and it will cause plants to die. Those 10 degrees change a lot of what you actually see and feel in the weather. Personally I think averages shouldn't be looked at for calling one place to have brutal or less brutal temps. I also disagree that difference in 10 degrees at the high end is worse. That's like the difference in average high between Chicago and Orlando, trust me for somebody who has lived in them, there is a huge difference in a summer that is averaging 85 every day and one that is averaging 95 everyday.
Noreasters are historically more rare than lots of average snow, that is why in DC for instance you'll see ~5 inches of snow for instance pretty often some years (for the entire winter), then you'll get like one snow fall that goes to 20 something inches. Everybody knows that Chicago gets most of it snow falls by the accumulation of lots of 1-2 inch snows compounded, and has rarer large snow falls. Well all those 1-2 inch snows and averaging close to 30 days of snow a year where some of the east coast cities average under 10 adds up. Go on weather underground, you can verify my facts day by day back to the 70s which will give a nice 30-40 year data set, which supposedly is when weather shifts happen.
Here is DC, just an example peer cities average snow fall. And snow is only one aspect.
You can see the last 100+ years. It looks nothing like that dataset of Chicago b/c it is packed with years with very little to almost non existent snow.
And as you said, the NE *does* get noreasters that Chicago doesn't, but that is why I am saying those numbers look even higher some years than they really should be b/c one or two storms can dump a ton of snow, but the rest of the time it isn't really like that. The NE cities often have daily snowfall records almost double what Chicago has ever seen.
But back to ChiNaan and mine major point, Chicago is colder than most places to most people in this country, you can't just compare it to other crappy places weather wise around the Great Lakes.
Just to prove this, I'll take a look at what people consider mid size to major "major" cities, lets say, a metro over 2 million for instance. I don't care what people up in Billings, Montana are experiencing, I'm sure it's terrible, because relatively few people live there and people from there aren't likely to move to Chicago anyway. So let's look at cities that people often have experience with and transfer from. That's 29 cities and 123 million people, not even including the others in those states which I estimate would bring the numbers up to about 3/4 of the country, adding in the totality of populated states.
29 Kansas City, MO-KS MSA 2,052,676 2,035,334 +0.85% Kansas City-Overland Park-Kansas City, MO-KS CSA
28 Cleveland-Elyria-Mentor, OH MSA 2,068,283 2,077,240 −0.43% Cleveland-Akron-Elyria, OH CSA
27 Cincinnati-Middletown, OH-KY-IN MSA 2,138,038 2,130,151 +0.37% Cincinnati-Middletown-Wilmington, OH-KY-IN CSA
26 Orlando-Kissimmee-Sanford, FL MSA 2,171,360 2,134,411 +1.73% Orlando-Deltona-Daytona Beach, FL CSA
25 Sacramento–Arden-Arcade–Roseville, CA MSA 2,176,235 2,149,127 +1.26% Sacramento–Arden-Arcade–Yuba City, CA-NV CSA
24 San Antonio-New Braunfels, TX MSA 2,194,927 2,142,508 +2.45%
23 Portland-Vancouver-Hillsboro, OR-WA MSA 2,262,605 2,226,009 +1.64% 22 Pittsburgh, PA MSA 2,359,746 2,356,285 +0.15% Pittsburgh-New Castle, PA CSA
21 Denver-Aurora-Broomfield, CO MSA 2,599,504 2,543,482 +2.20% Denver-Aurora-Boulder, CO CSA
20 Baltimore-Towson, MD MSA 2,729,110 2,710,489 +0.69% Washington-Baltimore-Northern Virginia, DC-MD-VA-WV CSA 19 St. Louis, MO-IL MSA 2,817,355 2,812,896 +0.16% St. Louis-St. Charles-Farmington, MO-IL CSA
18 Tampa-St. Petersburg-Clearwater, FL MSA 2,824,724 2,783,243 +1.49%
17 San Diego-Carlsbad-San Marcos, CA MSA 3,140,069 3,095,313 +1.45% 16 Minneapolis-St. Paul-Bloomington, MN-WI MSA 3,318,486 3,279,833 +1.18% Minneapolis-St. Paul-St. Cloud, MN-WI CSA
15 Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue, WA MSA 3,500,026 3,439,809 +1.75% Seattle-Tacoma-Olympia, WA CSA
14 Phoenix-Mesa-Glendale, AZ MSA 4,263,236 4,192,887 +1.68% 13 Detroit-Warren-Livonia, MI MSA 4,285,832 4,296,250 −0.24% Detroit-Warren-Flint, MI CSA
12 Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario, CA MSA 4,304,997 4,224,851 +1.90% Los Angeles-Long Beach-Riverside, CA CSA
11 San Francisco-Oakland-Fremont, CA MSA 4,391,037 4,335,391 +1.28% San Jose-San Francisco-Oakland, CA CSA 10 Boston-Cambridge-Quincy, MA-NH MSA 4,591,112 4,552,402 +0.85% Boston-Worcester-Manchester, MA-RI-NH CSA
9 Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Marietta, GA MSA 5,359,205 5,268,860 +1.71% Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Gainesville, GA-AL CSA
8 Miami-Fort Lauderdale-Pompano Beach, FL MSA 5,670,125 5,564,635 +1.90%
7 Washington-Arlington-Alexandria, DC-VA-MD-WV MSA 5,703,948 5,582,170 +2.18% Washington-Baltimore-Northern Virginia, DC-MD-VA-WV CSA 6 Philadelphia-Camden-Wilmington, PA-NJ-DE-MD MSA 5,992,414 5,965,343 +0.45% Philadelphia-Camden-Vineland, PA-NJ-DE-MD CSA
5 Houston-Sugar Land-Baytown, TX MSA 6,086,538 5,946,800 +2.35% Houston-Baytown-Huntsville, TX CSA
4 Dallas-Fort Worth-Arlington, TX MSA 6,526,548 6,371,773 +2.43% Dallas-Fort Worth, TX CSA
3 Chicago-Joliet-Naperville, IL-IN-WI MSA 9,504,753 9,461,105 +0.46% Chicago-Naperville-Michigan City, IL-IN-WI CSA
2 Los Angeles-Long Beach-Santa Ana, CA MSA 12,944,801 12,828,837 +0.90% Los Angeles-Long Beach-Riverside, CA CSA 1 New York-Northern New Jersey-Long Island, NY-NJ-PA MSA 19,015,900 18,897,109 +0.63% New York-Newark-Bridgeport, NY-NJ-CT-PA CSA
There is only one city on that list that has a worse winter than Chicago, and that's Minneapolis. So out of the largest 28 other metropolitan areas in the country, only one of those possible relocation would consider Chicago having a milder winter than where they came from. So is it any wonder that people, and especially a site like city data that most people come from big cities would talk about the "winters" of Chicago?
I went to that NOAA site for Chicago snowfall before I even saw you linked it. There isnt one for NYC on there, or many other cities ive searched, so ill have to take a raincheck on that one. Id be more than glad to compare them.
Those averages are from decade old information (50++ years). Weather patterns change, as you noted. In recent memory, and im talking last 10 or so years between say, NYC and Chicago, the winters have not been all that significantly different. Especially the last 3-5, id give the winter edge to Chicago. As someone else alluded to, one reason people think Chicago has the worst winter could be from all the time you have to spend outside.
One city on that list that has a worse winter? No. Minneapolis/St Paul, Boston, Pittsburgh, Detroit, Denver and Cleveland are all either worse or very similar. NYC and Philadelphia are slightly more mild, but they get more precipitation (not even just from Nor'easters) than Chicago does.
The other cities are either in the South or West. Seattle and Portland are omitted for reasons being that they have their own miserable winters. Most of the country deals with cold like Chicago does, but not rain or overcast weather like Seattle or Portland do.
This debate keeps coming back to the crappy places and Great Lakes comment. I bolded Great Lakes/Rust Belt/Midwest/Northeast cities on that list of metros of 2 million+. Ask people from those locales if Chicago is the worst winter. Thats what im debating. Everyone understands that Chicago is analyzed more because of exposure/scale, but you cant just discount an entire region of 150 million people because some are in "crappy places." Stop looking at it as cities, and start looking at it as regions. Like I said in the other thread, its warm climate locales vs cold climate locales. There are plenty of people from the cities I bolded who think Chicago is NOT the worst, and statistically shows its not as well. Its a region of 150+ million. Im not looking at it divided by cities. So once again, its not city vs city, its region vs region.
As far as temperature differences, I stated that the higher/lower you go, the less difference there is in how it feels. 35 and 25 may feel slightly different because one is above freezing and one below, but 0 and 10 degrees? No. 90 and 100? No. 45 and 55? No. No. 65 and 75? No. There is no significant or considerable difference in how these temperatures feel. There are also other factors like humidity/heat index, etc. but im talking strictly temperature. Also, just because there are people who spend considerable amount of time in say, 65 degrees and are used to it vs 55 degrees and are used to it, doesnt mean that the temperatures arent all that different. Id say that kind of experience happens with anything youre used to, not even just weather.
It also bears mention that for a city with such a "worst winter" rep, its third in city population and metro population.
This thread headline could be found in the subforum for any one of Denver, Minneapolis/St Paul, Boston, NYC, Philly, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Detroit, etc.
OK, we are both obviously getting very technical. And yes those cities are similar, but I'd say, slightly worse in terms of cold temps. Though if you view grey days as worse, then obviously Cleveland or a Seattle might be worse for you.
You were right on my 6 months, I was a bit off. I ran the actual numbers and Chicago averages 32 or below from November 15th to March 29th. That is not discounting any windchill, just raw #s. However one of the issues is "length" and 32 isn't the exact threshold of feeling pretty cold. If the winters went straight into a warm spring, it would be different... But springs are pretty cold as well.
So let's expand it a bit to 40 or below, not brutally cold, but still in most peoples minds, 30's are cold. And I definitely have a coat or jacket on in the 30s, though I of course know some that will still wear shorts. The temperature the NOAA officially uses to issue wind chill warnings as a threshold. I.E. 40 and a 15mph wind will feel like 32-freezing. What gets truly annoying is when it's in the 30s and it's already Memorial Day, or Easter and snowing, both of which I've seen happen in my short time here.
Chicago is 40 or below temp for the day on average from Oct 25th all the way through April 20th which is about half the year.
I think more interesting would be to measure amount of 20/10/0 degree or below days, b/c those are the ones you start to remember, that the mid atlantic cities I was mentioning really don't get, but of course other midwest cities, and even those down to Missouri and Kansas will get more from time to time because of nothing blocking the Arctic High.
Ask people from those locales if Chicago is the worst winter. Thats what im debating.
You need to start a separate thread, then, since nobody on this one other than you has said anything about Chicago having the worst winters. You'll probably need to find a different forum, though. Maybe you could start your own at thingsnobodyhaseversaidorwouldeversayunlesstheyrec ompleteidiots.com.
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