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I find it strange that you claim to be no pessimist right after you lay out numerous reasons why we're going to Hell like crap through a goose.
Get a grip, man. I have to wonder how old you are; namely if you're old enough to remember similar economic recessions we were able to pull ourselves out of. This country has been through far, far worse than this and pulled through just fine. And we will do so again, no thanks to the Chicken Littles out there.
drover, i am more than comfortable that you see me as a pessimist. that's your viewpoint on it and i respect it.
i see myself more as a realist. i'm 63 for the record. i've taught US history my whole life. and for so much of that time, I have been anything but negative on the state of the US. But I have seen and chronicled the decline in so many ways over the last third of a century when corporations became more important than people and during the last ten when so much unraveled.
I honestly believe we are in worse shape today than we have ever been. The excesses of the last 3 decades are greater than those of the 1920s. During the Depression, it was a matter of getting our own house in order; we were a rising nation with great industrial strength. today we have squandered that.
Call me Chicken Little all you want. I call it seeing what is in each era and trying to assess it as best I can. The sky is falling because we have little concern about what shape it is in or the land and sea below it. If you can put a happy face on that, I can't.
There is no "right" or "wrong" out there and it isn't about pessimism or optimisim. It is about trying to assess things using the cues that are given us. A lot of people see things like I do; many others see your perspective.
I want things to go as well as you do, drover, but I'm not going to put a positive spin on what appears as very bad news and worse news: we're doing little to correct it.
Unlike you, I will make no assessment on your views as how they relate to you. We are two different people, with two different outlooks and experiences. What I say carries no more validity than what you say.
And, more importantly, what I say as to what I see does not, in any way, impact the actions I try to take to make things better.
Personally, given the choice of being the pessimist you see than be like so many well off Americans who are living the good life at the expense of the rest of us and think everything is going to work out just fine.
For too many Americans today, they are living chicken little's nightmere. And more and more, if you listen to what people are saying, are joining the sadness.
I'd like nothing better than the good news of a nation that sees the errors of its ways and does something about it. Even though I have a job, I'm heartbroken about how many Americans are out of work, can't find jobs, or have given up looking. I'm satisified with my health care plan but it crushes me to know how many of us are uninured, unlike any advanced nation on earth, and that some 20,000 of us die yearly because of lack of health care caused by greed.
Sorry if that doesn't give me grounds for optimism. But it doesn't.
(for the record: your "the nation has pulled together" in the past during hard times is hardly a cause for comfort. Look out there, drover, we're not pulling together, we're pulling apart. and tribalizing. I can't count on US history to have influence on the current US DNA; each era is different)
OK, since you teach U.S. history, certainly you understand that corporations have wielded far, far more power over people's lives and the levers of power in the past than they do now, right down to many of them actually owning the houses their employees lived in as a means of keeping them in line ("Oh, so you wanna organize a union or demonstrate against intolerable working conditions?? Fine, you're evicted."). There were virtually no protections against despicable labor practices, anywhere from hiring children to refusing to hire minorities and women, to using flat-out violence to break strikes, to complete disregard for worker safety, to stealing people's pensions with no legal recourse available to the victims whatsoever. Corporations face more laws, controls, regulations and scrutiny than they ever have.
We have squandered our industrial strength? Oddly enough, our industrial output is higher than ever.
You claim there is no right or wrong, but at the same time you trade in factual claims that can easily be challenged or are just flat-out inaccurate, and then assume conclusions that are really just a matter of your own opinion but assume them to be true, such as "we're not pulling together, we're pulling apart.") Then you use those claims and assumptions-masquarading-as-facts to decry the pending death of America. And after all that you claim not to be a pessimist while your posts are verily soaked with doom-and-gloom. It's baffling to me how you fail to grasp this disconnect. When you can no longer conceive of a way out but can only see a way down, you're no longer just a realist.
(for the record: your "the nation has pulled together" in the past during hard times is hardly a cause for comfort. Look out there, drover, we're not pulling together, we're pulling apart. and tribalizing. I can't count on US history to have influence on the current US DNA; each era is different)
Every era is different, but I don't think we're any more polarized than we were in the 30's. Opposition to the New Deal and the Lend Lease program was venomous. Not everyone "pulled together" in the 30's and 40's, there were significant portions of the US population that despised FDR and his policies. Go back and listen to speeches by Father Coughlin, Martin Dies, and Dr. Townsend.
OK, since you teach U.S. history, certainly you understand that corporations have wielded far, far more power over people's lives and the levers of power in the past than they do now, right down to many of them actually owning the houses their employees lived in as a means of keeping them in line ("Oh, so you wanna organize a union or demonstrate against intolerable working conditions?? Fine, you're evicted."). There were virtually no protections against despicable labor practices, anywhere from hiring children to refusing to hire minorities and women, to using flat-out violence to break strikes, to complete disregard for worker safety, to stealing people's pensions with no legal recourse available to the victims whatsoever. Corporations face more laws, controls, regulations and scrutiny than they ever have.
We have squandered our industrial strength? Oddly enough, our industrial output is higher than ever.
You claim there is no right or wrong, but at the same time you trade in factual claims that can easily be challenged or are just flat-out inaccurate, and then assume conclusions that are really just a matter of your own opinion but assume them to be true, such as "we're not pulling together, we're pulling apart.") Then you use those claims and assumptions-masquarading-as-facts to decry the pending death of America. And after all that you claim not to be a pessimist while your posts are verily soaked with doom-and-gloom. It's baffling to me how you fail to grasp this disconnect. When you can no longer conceive of a way out but can only see a way down, you're no longer just a realist.
you can see it as doom and gloom. i see it as a society in trouble and one that one admit its own precarious position.
as noted, my assessment tookplace over a period of time and my picking up on a downward trajectory.
again, all i can tell you is that lots of people see the problems i see and many others have your perspective. and frankly...i'd rather you be right than me.
i don't feelit is "doom and gloom" since i'm not a pessimist, never looked on the dark side of life, but always tweaked my assessments based on changing conditions.
All I can do is share how i see it here, drover....and fully respect you even though you don't agree with me. You label me with "doom and gloom"; I don't label you at all but merely say you draw conclusions differently than I do.
I don't profess to have the answers; I can only satisfy me needs to take in the reality out there....and be perfectly comfortable that you or others can criticize me because of it. there is nothing wrong that you do.
As for the death of America...I don't know what will be. Ten years before the collapse of the Soviet Union, nobody saw it coming. And when Germany went through its ills in the 20s and 30s leading up to WWII, a lot of Germans didn't see the forest from the trees.
Countries do rise and fall. When that happens, I don't know. But there is nothing inconsistent with me looking at the US in these terms as I would look at any nation. There is no American exceptionalism in my book, and all peoples are subject to the same ebbs and flows. empires do rise and fall.
BTW, for what's its worth, I would have to say your assessment of America's industrustial strength today is pretty far out there.
Every era IS different, with a different set of problems.
As I get older, I am more scared because I have more to lose than I did in the recessions of the past 3 decades. I have played by the rules of paying off my credit cards every month (but had to learn hard lessons first), followed the 4x theory of house price to salaries , have enough saved to last at least 18 months if things get tough. I even went back to school 10 years ago when I saw the writing on the wall. Yet, still I am afraid because the housing, construction and job markets are so poor.
Older citizens are staying in the work force much longer (if they are not let go) because the retirement funds are depleted. This creates less jobs for younger people. Transitory jobs such as waitressing or cashiering are no longer for part-time moms or college kids, they are being fought over by people who have lost their jobs, and even these jobs are like found gold. Having a skill or degree doesn't mean too much right now.
I thought the Olympics would have given us a needed boost in the construction, hospitality, tourism and merchandising industries. It may have been short sighted, but at least it was something. Forgive me, as I have not lived in the city for over a decade and am not as in tune with the problems of Chicago that supercede boosting the economy as most of you are. I figured maybe tourists that had no intention of coming to the US or Chicago during the Olympics might consider coming earlier because of the hype. I am probably wrong, but who knows? I thought it might showcase the city and surrounding areas as places to set up shop or business. I guess it's moot.
I don't want to be pessimistic. I want my kids and grandkids to have a good life. I need to believe things will get better and am willing to do what I can to help get us back on track. I also need to believe others are willing to do what they can, too.
I don't want to be pessimistic. I want my kids and grandkids to have a good life. I need to believe things will get better and am willing to do what I can to help get us back on track. I also need to believe others are willing to do what they can, too.
i agree, Jill. what scares me is not the pessimists, but the optimists that think everything wil work out just fine without us doing something about it. the system is broken. our government doesn't work and we need to take it back. and we need to work for a more equitable society.
look at just one issue....global climate change...and see how few people take it seriously is a real cause for concern for me.
It isn't the circumstances that we're in that bother me, but the unwillingness to sacrifice and do the hard work needed to make things better. Many of the most "cheery" people out there are ones who have "made it" and aren't really concerned about the plight of so many fellow Americans left behind.
i agree, Jill. what scares me is not the pessimists, but the optimists that think everything wil work out just fine without us doing something about it. the system is broken. our government doesn't work and we need to take it back. and we need to work for a more equitable society.
look at just one issue....global climate change...and see how few people take it seriously is a real cause for concern for me.
It isn't the circumstances that we're in that bother me, but the unwillingness to sacrifice and do the hard work needed to make things better. Many of the most "cheery" people out there are ones who have "made it" and aren't really concerned about the plight of so many fellow Americans left behind.
You know, I don't really understand your point of view the more I read what you are saying. You say we aren't doing anything, but i would say the opposite, we are doing a lot.
Successful businesses act in a way for long term success, all you have to do is read about their focuses. Doing things to help society is a huge aspect of many large corporations. For example, just look at the home page of the MillerCoors website (Age Verification), they focus on responsibility and people. I read about many, many companies that focus on sustainability and responsbility.
You talk about a more equitable society, I'm not really sure what your utopia is, but the US is currently talking about healthcare reform and environmental issues nearly daily.
It is easy to pick a position and say everything sucks or everything is great, and cherry pick ideas or facts to support your stance, but that is missing the big picture. I believe the big picture is not nearly as bleak as you perceive.
You know, I don't really understand your point of view the more I read what you are saying. You say we aren't doing anything, but i would say the opposite, we are doing a lot.
Successful businesses act in a way for long term success, all you have to do is read about their focuses. Doing things to help society is a huge aspect of many large corporations. For example, just look at the home page of the MillerCoors website (Age Verification), they focus on responsibility and people. I read about many, many companies that focus on sustainability and responsbility.
You talk about a more equitable society, I'm not really sure what your utopia is, but the US is currently talking about healthcare reform and environmental issues nearly daily.
It is easy to pick a position and say everything sucks or everything is great, and cherry pick ideas or facts to support your stance, but that is missing the big picture. I believe the big picture is not nearly as bleak as you perceive.
i would say the health care bill in Congress right now has been so watered down and so berift of a public option that it merely is satisfying the insurance companies that support it. They are calling the shots. It is their campaign funds that make our senators and congressmen vote the way they do. we are behind every advanced nation on earth on how they provide their citizens with health care. To have a for profit system for basic health care is a crime. We have a Senate that does not work that requires 60 votes for a majority. Global corporations with no loyalty to the US are calling the shots. It would be hard to call our government democratic today on most levels.
As for global climate change, scientists themselves are surprised by the rapidity of the change. We are hardly doing enough to stop it.
Is all going badly? No. But I do see a society in decline. I don't do that from an emotional perspective. I read far too much (and I'm sure the rest of you do, too) to cover it all here. My assessments come from reading sources that I respect and that are backed up in validity.
I choose neither to be optimist or pessimist but to be as realistic as I can be. My disposition and outlook have no bearing on how I crunch the numbers or observe the landscape.
almost, i have no problem what-so-ever with anyone disagreeing with me here. I have no crystal ball. When it comes to the future, we are all making our predictions based on whatever knowledge we have been able to assemble and how we evaluate it.
We are going to see things differently.
But let's not make the personal assessments of where others are coming from. I have never seen myself as a pessimistic person and, as noted, have spent much of my lifetime feeling very good about my country. It is not my dispostion or any leanings towards a "sky is falling" perspective that guides me but in carefully reading what is happening in the nation and evaluating it.
Just because some people may be responding about our current circumstances in a negative way because they are pessimists, it doesn't mean that seeing the US in serious trouble would make one a pessimist.
I hardly think, for example, that a German in the early 1930s who was very concerned and very down on his nation's direction and its prospects would be considered a pessimist. That was rather realistic thinking.
No, i am not equating the US to Nazi Germany.All I'm saying is that I....as well as so many others.....have come to the conclusion that we have squandered so much of what we have. And I, like those others, is sick over it, and wish to be wrong.
I think The United States now is comparable to Britian in the late 19th Century and after the Great War; steadily losing both economic and political power to it's rivals, mainly Germany (before the Great War) and The United States.
Then the Second World War bankrupted Britian and finally put paid to it's notions that it was a top level power. Soon it's empire was gone and it went to war outside it's own territory only with American permission (the Suez Crisis).
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