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Old 06-17-2010, 01:41 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
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Luke 17:20 Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, ''The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; [21] nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or, 'there it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.''

As I said in the first post, Jesus did NOT say that the kingdom of God is 'within you.' That is an improper translation. Again, He was speaking to unbelieving Pharisees. The Greek word is 'ENTOS', and when used in conjunction with a plural noun, means ''among'' or ''in the midst of''. In Luke 17:21, ENTOS is used with ''you'', which is a pronoun.

Even the King Jame's Bible which improperly translates the word Entos in verse 21 as 'within you', acknowledges in its center column that it might also be translated as 'among you', and points to John 1:26 which says 'John answered them saying, ''I baptize in water, but among you stands One whom you do not know.'' No, the word Entos is not used in John 1:26. But the point is that Jesus was among them and they didn't know who He was.

The better Bible translations such as the New American Standard Bible properly translate Luke 17:21 as 'the kingdom of God is in your midst.'

Liberal replacement theology is grounded in the heretical belief that God is done with Israel and that the church is spiritual Israel, and that all the promises that God made to Israel were transfered to the church. This is of course completely unscriptural. But that belief allows those who adhere to it to think that the church is the fulfillment of the kingdom promises that God made concerning Israel.

The church is a new creation, a heavenly people. The church is said to be the body of Christ, and the bride of Christ. But it is not the Kingdom of God.


Jesus is never said to be king of the church. He was born King of the Jews (Matt. 2:2) and it is His destiny to sit on the throne of David and rule over the house of Jacob forever (Luke 1:33).

The kingdom of God is a literal, political kingdom that will be established on the earth at the second advent of Christ. The church returns to the earth with Christ. And winner believers, those who overcome, will rule with Christ in the kingdom.

Jesus Christ is currently in heaven waiting for the time of His return to Jerusalem at the end of the tribulation to sit upon the throne of David as King of kings and Lord of lords over Israel and the Gentile nations (Lk. 1:32-33, Rev. 3:21, 19:15-16, Isa. 2:2-4; 9:7; Dan. 2:34-35,44; Zech. 2:10-13; 3:9-10; 6:12-13; 8:1-8,13,20-23; 9:10; 12:10; 14:9,16).

Matthew 25:31 shows that the kingdom reign of Jesus is still future as well as earthly. "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.


It is in the yet future kingdom age when the 'fortunes of Israel' will be restored.

Jer. 30:3 'For, behold, days are coming,' declares the LORD, 'when I will restore the fortunes of My people Israel and Judah.' The LORD says, ' I will bring them back to the land that I gave to their forefathers, and they shall possess it.' ''

Jer. 31:23 Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, ''Once again they will speak this word in the land of Judah and in its cities, when I restore their fortunes, 'The LORD bless you, O abode of righteousness, O holy hill!''

Jer. 33:7 'And I will restore the fortunes of Judah and the fortunes of Israel, and I will rebuild them as they were at first.

Eze. 39:25 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, ''Now I shall restore the fortunes of Jacob, and have mercy on the whole house of Israel; and I shall be jealous for My holy name .

And it is this that the apostles had asked Jesus about, as recorded in Acts 1:6 ''...Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?''

And it this restoration of the kingdom to Israel that Acts 3:21 is referring to.

Acts 3:21 ...whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

The restoration of all things concerns the restoration of Israel's fortunes during the kingdom age, which the Lord ushers in at His second advent. At that time, the Abrahamic, Palestinian, Davidic, and the New Covenant to Israel will be fulfilled.

Last edited by Michael Way; 06-17-2010 at 02:24 AM..
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Old 06-17-2010, 07:38 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 6,952,736 times
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Of course, the improper translation argument is used by someone who objects to it when it conflicts with his own doctrine, but it perfectly fine when it suits his.

But again the improper translation argument is not necessary because it is not true.

As a believer if you think that you must conjure up a spirit to come to you then you engage in pagan rituals.

God is everywhere and the spiritual work God does is inside of you, there is nothing that changes spiritually about a person that is external, it all comes from inside you. This does not mean you are your own God, it means as a physical shell, the spiritual work is within.

Your deepest secrets are inside you, the deepest changes that come about are within, they are not external.

However, walk into any church and what are you taught, you are taught to present yourself as someone your not on the external.

You show up at church and you learn to show the outward expression of what your expected to be, not who you really are.

The proof of the meaning is observed in the reality of what must be changed about a person and where that change takes place.

Within.
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Old 06-17-2010, 08:54 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
33,311 posts, read 26,506,892 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Luke 17:20 Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, ''The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; [21] nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or, 'there it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.''

As I said in the first post, Jesus did NOT say that the kingdom of God is 'within you.' That is an improper translation. Again, He was speaking to unbelieving Pharisees. The Greek word is 'ENTOS', and when used in conjunction with a plural noun, means ''among'' or ''in the midst of''. In Luke 17:21, ENTOS is used with ''you'', which is a pronoun.

Even the King Jame's Bible which improperly translates the word Entos in verse 21 as 'within you', acknowledges in its center column that it might also be translated as 'among you', and points to John 1:26 which says 'John answered them saying, ''I baptize in water, but among you stands One whom you do not know.'' No, the word Entos is not used in John 1:26. But the point is that Jesus was among them and they didn't know who He was.

The better Bible translations such as the New American Standard Bible properly translate Luke 17:21 as 'the kingdom of God is in your midst.'

Liberal replacement theology is grounded in the heretical belief that God is done with Israel and that the church is spiritual Israel, and that all the promises that God made to Israel were transfered to the church. This is of course completely unscriptural. But that belief allows those who adhere to it to think that the church is the fulfillment of the kingdom promises that God made concerning Israel.

The church is a new creation, a heavenly people. The church is said to be the body of Christ, and the bride of Christ. But it is not the Kingdom of God.


Jesus is never said to be king of the church. He was born King of the Jews (Matt. 2:2) and it is His destiny to sit on the throne of David and rule over the house of Jacob forever (Luke 1:33).

The kingdom of God is a literal, political kingdom that will be established on the earth at the second advent of Christ. The church returns to the earth with Christ. And winner believers, those who overcome, will rule with Christ in the kingdom.

Jesus Christ is currently in heaven waiting for the time of His return to Jerusalem at the end of the tribulation to sit upon the throne of David as King of kings and Lord of lords over Israel and the Gentile nations (Lk. 1:32-33, Rev. 3:21, 19:15-16, Isa. 2:2-4; 9:7; Dan. 2:34-35,44; Zech. 2:10-13; 3:9-10; 6:12-13; 8:1-8,13,20-23; 9:10; 12:10; 14:9,16).

Matthew 25:31 shows that the kingdom reign of Jesus is still future as well as earthly. "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.


It is in the yet future kingdom age when the 'fortunes of Israel' will be restored.

Jer. 30:3 'For, behold, days are coming,' declares the LORD, 'when I will restore the fortunes of My people Israel and Judah.' The LORD says, ' I will bring them back to the land that I gave to their forefathers, and they shall possess it.' ''

Jer. 31:23 Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, ''Once again they will speak this word in the land of Judah and in its cities, when I restore their fortunes, 'The LORD bless you, O abode of righteousness, O holy hill!''

Jer. 33:7 'And I will restore the fortunes of Judah and the fortunes of Israel, and I will rebuild them as they were at first.

Eze. 39:25 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, ''Now I shall restore the fortunes of Jacob, and have mercy on the whole house of Israel; and I shall be jealous for My holy name .

And it is this that the apostles had asked Jesus about, as recorded in Acts 1:6 ''...Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?''

And it this restoration of the kingdom to Israel that Acts 3:21 is referring to.

Acts 3:21 ...whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

The restoration of all things concerns the restoration of Israel's fortunes during the kingdom age, which the Lord ushers in at His second advent. At that time, the Abrahamic, Palestinian, Davidic, and the New Covenant to Israel will be fulfilled.
As I forgot to include this in the above post, #21, I'll do so here. Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Word's states that the word Entos in Luke 17:21 is better translated as ''among you.''
-----------------------
Also, to expand on what has already been said...

In Luke 17:20 the Pharisees questioned Jesus as to when the kingdom of God was coming. Jesus' reply was this. ''The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; [21] nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or, 'There it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.'


What do the statements 'the kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed', and 'nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or 'There it is!', mean? They are related to the Lord's second coming as is shown by the following passages.

Luke 17:22 And He said to the disciples, ''The days shall come when you will long to see one of the days of the son of Man, and you will not see it. [23] ''And they will say to you, 'Look there! Look here!' Do not go away, and do not run after them. [24] For just as the lightning, when it flashes out of one part of the sky, shines to the other part of the sky, so will the Son of Man be in His day. [25] ''But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.

Matthew 24:22 in reference to the Tribulation says this. ''And unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days shall be cut short. [23] ''Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There He is,' do not believe him. [24] For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. ...[26] 'If therefore they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go forth, or, 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them. [27] 'For just as the lightning comes from the east, and flashes even to the west, so shall the coming of the Son of Man be.

During the Tribulation, many will say that the Lord has returned, but they are not to be believed because the Lord's return and the arrival of the kingdom will be as clear as lightning flashing across the sky. All of Israel will know it.




Now with all the above having been said, that the coming of the kingdom is fulfilled with the coming of the Lord and a literal, physical, political kingdom, there is nevertheless a spiritual aspect to the kingdom.

In Matthew 12:28 Jesus states the following. ''But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

But that is not the ultimate fulfillment of the kingdom. That ultimate fulfillment awaits the Lord's return.

The kingdom of God is not within the believer. And the kingdom is not the church. The kingdom is never said to be within you. The kingdom is always spoken of in terms of being entered into. The believer in Christ has eternal life, and so he is spiritually in the kingdom of God. But he is not physically in the kingdom. The arrival of the kingdom on earth occurs with the arrival of the king. Jesus Christ at His second coming. And as already stated elsewhere, the church returns with Christ at His second coming when He sets up His kingdom on earth.

Which also brings up the aspect that when the believer dies, he is immediately in the presence of the Lord in Heaven. And also, before the tribulation begins, the church will have been raptured into Heaven.

The word of God must be rightly divided. The church and the kingdom are two different things. The Scriptures are clear in the distinction.
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Old 06-17-2010, 08:59 AM
 
Location: Germany
1,821 posts, read 2,337,202 times
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Quote:
As I said in the first post, Jesus did NOT say that the kingdom of God is 'within you.' That is an improper translation. Again, He was speaking to unbelieving Pharisees. The Greek word is 'ENTOS', and when used in conjunction with a plural noun, means ''among'' or ''in the midst of''. In Luke 17:21, ENTOS is used with ''you'', which is a pronoun.
I do not know if this claim is true, see here
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Old 06-17-2010, 09:10 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
33,311 posts, read 26,506,892 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
I do not know if this claim is true, see here
See post #23 with regard to my statement that Vines Expository Dictionary of New Testament words says that 'among you' is the better translaton. Also, the better Bible translations correctly translate Entos in Luke 17:21 as 'among you,' or 'in your midst.'

Last edited by Michael Way; 06-17-2010 at 09:20 AM..
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Old 06-17-2010, 09:15 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
I do not know if this claim is true, see here

The issue here is that the use of Entos when encompasing a group does not change the meaning only broadens the perspective.

The kingdom is within each of us, if we are in a group, there is a broader spectrum because people working together in spirit would manifest the kingdom among them, this does not change that each individual has that within them.


The only mis interpetation that can come about is if a person believes thay are an individual kingdom, apart from the greater whole.

This is why the division of scripture is about Gods cosmos and the kingdom within. Gods cosmos is the greater whole and the kingdom within is the seed that grows as branches to completion to produce fruit.

Unbelievers are simply untoiled soil that has not yet had a seed planted, but that soil ( biblically, void. without form) in due time will have Gods breath upon them, to make the soil fertile so seeds will grow.
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Old 06-17-2010, 09:27 AM
 
Location: Germany
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Quote:
Vines Expository Dictionary of New Testament
Theological dictionaries often have their own agendas and are biased, the Liddl Scott appears to be less biased; to me the traditional rendering makes more sense, the Vulgate does support it
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Old 06-17-2010, 09:37 AM
 
Location: US
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Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
Not all things according to scripture.
I would have to say that if the bible meant ALL would be saved it would have said it in no uncertain terms...it says that one must believe and have faith to be saved in no uncertain terms...why would it be so mysterious on the matter of salvation of all?...
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Old 06-17-2010, 09:42 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
33,311 posts, read 26,506,892 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
Theological dictionaries often have their own agendas and are biased, the Liddl Scott appears to be less biased; to me the traditional rendering makes more sense, the Vulgate does support it
W.E. Vine, is a Greek scholar,and is widely recognized as an expert in the field of Biblical Greek studies.

I again remind everyone that the better Bible translations translate the word Entos in Luke 17:21 as 'among you' or 'in the midst of'.

But I am not going to keep going back and forth on it. I have supplied the information concerning what the kingdom of God is. Those interested in honestly studying the subject will do so. Other's will simply react based on what they already believe.
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Old 06-17-2010, 09:52 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
I would have to say that if the bible meant ALL would be saved it would have said it in no uncertain terms...it says that one must believe and have faith to be saved in no uncertain terms...why would it be so mysterious on the matter of salvation of all?...
It isn't mysterious about it.
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