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Legoman...you are flat out wrong. The verses you provided only turn your argument against you. The focus is Israel, as it was from the beginning, to the end....the prophets confirm this, the epistles reveal this. Secondly, if you had any training, even remedial, in ancient Hebrew or greek, you would know without a doubt that neither John or David is talking about the entire globe as we know it. Buy a couple at Barnes and Noble to bring you up to speed. Your views are fading fast.
I am not directly talking to you about that meerkat...this I know.
Yes! But this has nothing to do with a Universal Salvation. This is a prophecy, about what was mostly fulfilled in Gospel times, and consummated, at the Resurrection. However, much of it is panoramic, meaning that it involves a span of hundreds of years. Some of Isaiah 45, was fulfilled in the rise and fall of Babylon, Daniel's times - See Verse 1
It's more thematic than chronological, or neatly formatted to our Greek mindset.....it is easily understood, by a Jew...living under Tiberius, who recalls the prophecy of Daniel 9.
The partition has been removed. Now all can come freely to the faith. It's rather simple. Come into covenant, and you are a priest and king....under Christ...
You are an Israelite by faith. No UR here...none. The focus is Israel, and has always been Israel, and will never change as it will always be Israel.
So please stop telling everyone they are an Israelite without accepting Christ as their Saviour, because that is a lie.
Christ died for the Israelite. Period. That is the WORLD to God. Israel...the Heaven and Earth....Israel.....the covenant....the theme....bound to His law in our heart.
The World......For God so loved it......Israel......that He gave His only Son....to Israel.....so that whosoever believeth in Him, shall not perish...but have everlasting life!!
Paul says....Israel....to be an Israelite...you must believe in Christ....cut from the heart....then John says.....through that belief...your sins are forgiven.
No UR anywhere in the Bible.
Actually there is UR in the Bible.There also appears to be ET.The ET crowd explains away the UR verses.The UR crowd explains away the ET verses.In the end it comes down to your view of God.Is God someone who will let His children He created go to an eternal hell,or is God an unconditional loving God who will see all His children reconciled to Him?How you view God determines how you deal with the conflicting scriptures,not vice versa.
Actually there is UR in the Bible.There also appears to be ET.The ET crowd explains away the UR verses.The UR crowd explains away the ET verses.In the end it comes down to your view of God.Is God someone who will let His children He created go to an eternal hell,or is God an unconditional loving God who will see all His children reconciled to Him?How you view God determines how you deal with the conflicting scriptures,not vice versa.
That's what I've tried to get across. I believe in giving God's holy, just, merciful, and loving character the benefit of the doubt first, and then study the bible to seek out the meaning, rather than first giving the benefit of the doubt to interpretations of men/doctrines to tell me what God's character is. I TRUST in God's love. I don't TRUST in man's interpretation of the scriptures. It's not the bible I don't trust, but manmade doctrine.
I am not directly talking to you about that meerkat...this I know.
Yes! But this has nothing to do with a Universal Salvation. This is a prophecy, about what was mostly fulfilled in Gospel times, and consummated, at the Resurrection. However, much of it is panoramic, meaning that it involves a span of hundreds of years. Some of Isaiah 45, was fulfilled in the rise and fall of Babylon, Daniel's times - See Verse 1
It's more thematic than chronological, or neatly formatted to our Greek mindset.....it is easily understood, by a Jew...living under Tiberius, who recalls the prophecy of Daniel 9.
The partition has been removed. Now all can come freely to the faith. It's rather simple. Come into covenant, and you are a priest and king....under Christ...
You are an Israelite by faith. No UR here...none. The focus is Israel, and has always been Israel, and will never change as it will always be Israel.
So please stop telling everyone they are an Israelite without accepting Christ as their Saviour, because that is a lie.
Christ died for the Israelite. Period. That is the WORLD to God. Israel...the Heaven and Earth....Israel.....the covenant....the theme....bound to His law in our heart.
The World......For God so loved it......Israel......that He gave His only Son....to Israel.....so that whosoever believeth in Him, shall not perish...but have everlasting life!!
Paul says....Israel....to be an Israelite...you must believe in Christ....cut from the heart....then John says.....through that belief...your sins are forgiven.
No UR anywhere in the Bible.
Sciotamicks,
I agree with you that no one is an Israelite without Christ, reborn in the Spirit - he is the Saviour of HIS body, HIS church
I agree that physically prophecy was fulfilled in 70AD and that there is a more panoramic view and fulfillment happening since, I just do not see it as limited in scope as what you do........
It seems to me that there are different levels of understanding in the bible -- and there are different levels of understanding of people, both those who hear the call and claim they are Jesus disciples and become his witnesses and those that do not hear the call because they are not chosen to be Gods witnesses... I do believe there are those that are chosen , Many are called few are chosen .
I do not claim to be chosen, I leave that to God I believe, and try to obey, that is my lot, but I do have a lot of questions and a desire for the truth and see that there is a lot more to the scriptures than a literal reading reveals ........
God made a covenant with Israel to be his witnesses to proclaim his mercy to the world, and also to produce the Messiah........ I also believe that everyone alive has a seed of Israel in them related to this verse
Quote:
Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Also the gospel, which is Jesus death and resurrection, will be "preached" to all.........
Quote:
1Pe 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
1Pe 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
The gospel is "everlasting" and I believe it lasts as long as "the lake of fire"
Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
God did not "speak" to me.....it was a revealing over time. The veil was lifted, and the truth shone through. It doesn't matter to me what you believe about what I know to be truth....it is completely between myself and God. That's who I'm concerned about pleasing.
It is very hard pleasing God instead of all the preachers and teachers that you trust and can see physically. Very hard. At least it was for me. It's getting a little easier as I go forward. Lonelier, but easier.
Actually . . . you are to find out for yourself. We come into this world alone and we leave the same way. We are, after all, responsible for ourselves here . . . (that's kinda what Dominion means to us Christians). I realize that you are not receptive to it and have not developed any sensitivity to it . . . but we are not really all alone. We do have God with us in our inner consciousness . . . you may yet encounter Him some day when it matters most.
I like that..."when it matters most!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow
It is very hard pleasing God instead of all the preachers and teachers that you trust and can see physically. Very hard. At least it was for me. It's getting a little easier as I go forward. Lonelier, but easier.
Walking with God never feels lonely herefornow...
Ah...you mean without fellowship..."If I could change the course I am taking now just to make people happy...I would...yet I know that in my walk with God...I have to be alone...but not lonely."
Actually . . . you are to find out for yourself. We come into this world alone and we leave the same way. We are, after all, responsible for ourselves here . . . (that's kinda what Dominion means to us Christians). I realize that you are not receptive to it and have not developed any sensitivity to it . . . but we are not really all alone. We do have God with us in our inner consciousness . . . you may yet encounter Him some day when it matters most.
That still doesn't address the question. It appears like you just get a kick out of trying to talk down to me from your lofty perch.
There are many people who have made these same claims that Ilene Wright has made, yet their conclusions about God differ from hers.
How can Ilene (or you, presuming your conclusions about God agree with hers) establish the superiority of your claims to know what God thinks over the claims of these others who hold different conclusions?
Last edited by DreamingSpires; 07-01-2010 at 04:39 AM..
I just assumed you were up on your studies of gnostical gobbledygook interpretation. Why would you not be?
Yes, it does appear that I was allowed to slip through the net of being given the right to post at the Christianity forum without first flashing my Gnostic Gobbledygook credentials.
This has "security breach" written all over it doesn't it?
....Others are more ethereally minded and more of the exploratory "test the boundaries" persuasion.
Tell me about it!
Even though they were fairly warned that if they went too far they'd fall off the edge of the earth.
Now THAT'S the smartest thing you have ever written. There may be hope for you yet!!
It is very hard pleasing God instead of all the preachers and teachers that you trust and can see physically. Very hard. At least it was for me. It's getting a little easier as I go forward. Lonelier, but easier.
Yes it is VERY hard, after it's been drilled into your head for so many years. It does get easier with time but you're right...it's a very lonely road that UR's travel.
I agree with you that no one is an Israelite without Christ, reborn in the Spirit - he is the Saviour of HIS body, HIS church
I agree that physically prophecy was fulfilled in 70AD and that there is a more panoramic view and fulfillment happening since, I just do not see it as limited in scope as what you do........
The only "other level" of ongoing fulfillment that continues is the blessings and the curses of the New Covenant....hence Kiss the Son...Lest He be angry....according to me...but is irrelevant to the discussion, because Preterism is not the discussion, but rather the theme of Isaiah 45, where Paul drew from exclusively....is the discussion, and that is....redemption and resurrection of Israel. There is nothing limited in this view. Israel is Jew and Gentile, ethnic nationality is irrelevant, but inner circumcision is, which defines the Israelite, and that is what is in view here...nothing else.
Quote:
It seems to me that there are different levels of understanding in the bible -- and there are different levels of understanding of people, both those who hear the call and claim they are Jesus disciples and become his witnesses and those that do not hear the call because they are not chosen to be Gods witnesses... I do believe there are those that are chosen , Many are called few are chosen .
Are you God's witness? Do you believe you are part of the few?
Quote:
I do not claim to be chosen, I leave that to God I believe, and try to obey, that is my lot, but I do have a lot of questions and a desire for the truth and see that there is a lot more to the scriptures than a literal reading reveals ........
I agree with you completely, but we must NEVER step outside of scripture, other than for historical confirmation of specific events that are nonetheless recorded in scripture, to define the themes and messages that are within it.
Quote:
God made a covenant with Israel to be his witnesses to proclaim his mercy to the world, and also to produce the Messiah........ I also believe that everyone alive has a seed of Israel in them related to this verse
A seed that can either be germinated or not, as we are all...without excuse.
Quote:
Also the gospel, which is Jesus death and resurrection, will be "preached" to all.........
Scriptures??....so I know where you are drawing this from...thanks.
Quote:
The gospel is "everlasting" and I believe it lasts as long as "the lake of fire"
This thought removes you from the UR view.
Quote:
Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
Col 1:5-6 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; Which is come unto you, as [it is] in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as [it doth] also in you, since the day ye heard [of it], and knew the grace of God in truth.
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister
Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith
2 Tim 4:17 Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and [that] all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion.
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That's what I've tried to get across. I believe in giving God's holy, just, merciful, and loving character the benefit of the doubt first, and then study the bible to seek out the meaning, rather than first giving the benefit of the doubt to interpretations of men/doctrines to tell me what God's character is. I TRUST in God's love. I don't TRUST in man's interpretation of the scriptures. It's not the bible I don't trust, but manmade doctrine.
