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I didn't notice the questions. Because you posted within my post, all I noticed was your very last sentence about the torment. I have since gone back and saw them.
The place is real regardless of the language that is used to describe it. The results are real - Eternal separation from God, which means no relationshiop with God. The torment is real. The destruction - Apollumi - is real. Not cessation of existence, but eternal ruin and uselessness, in disgrace and in torment. Much of that torment will be the ever present memories of the chances that person had to receive Christ as Savior but he refused to do so. Much of the torment will be the eternal hopelessness of his irrevocable situation. The place is real. The descriptions used to describe it often include 'fire'. Fire is used for judgment. The fire is either real or it stands for something much worse, with fire being the strongest word to describe it.
All of Revelation is not symbolic. Much of it is. Not all of it. And the symbolism describes something that is real.
Matthew 25:41,46 calls it the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.
Jesus' spiritual death was different from the spiritual death of the unbeliever. His spiritual death lasted for 3 hours during which time He was being judged for the sins of the world. His was a substitionary spritual death of a sinnless man who bore the sins of the world in our place. Those who reject Christ will suffer an eternal spiritual death in the lake of fire.
Of course everyone reaps what they sow. If you die without believing in Christ, you reap eternal separation from God. Man can not pay the price for sin. Christ did pay the price. If Christ who paid the price, is rejected as Savior, then the one who rejected Christ can only try to earn his own salvation. Since Christ already paid the penalty for sin, the basis for the unbelievers condemnation becomes his own human good. Human righteousness is always rejected by God and as seen in Revelation 20:11-15, the unbelievers works are what condemns him.
Universalists are extremely foolish to ignore and twist the Scriptures. Not being able to face reality doesn't change reality. Indeed, you will reap what you sow.
So answer the question..... What does an unbeliever sow that causes them to reap burning in hell for eternity?
IF you are born under the wrath of God does that mean you are burning in fire until you are "saved?" How do you connect "wrath of God" or even everlasting contempt to burning in hell for eternity?
All the things are spoken of during the LIFE of the person not after they are dead.
You have yet to establish that there is a connection between wrath of God and burning in hell for ever. And you have failed to establish that any of these things occur after death.
Try harder Mike.
No. It is you who had better come to your senses. You seem to live to oppose the truth. You have been shown that everyone is resurrected to either eternal life or eternal damnation. You refuse to see it. I invite readers to go back and read post #56. You either understand it or you don't.
As for you katjonjj, you seem quite willing to flush the truth down the toilet for the sake of a debate. Go waste someone else's time.
IF you are born under the wrath of God does that mean you are burning in fire until you are "saved?" How do you connect "wrath of God" or even everlasting contempt to burning in hell for eternity?
Such a good point! I've never thought of it that way, but that verse that says God's wrath "remains" would have to mean his wrath is already present for it to "remain," which means His wrath can't be that someone is burning without being able to be extinquished! I already knew in my heart this was not His wrath, but this makes it even more clear.
Such a good point! I've never thought of it that way, but that verse that says God's wrath "remains" would have to mean his wrath is already present for it to "remain," which means His wrath can't be that someone is burning without being able to be extinquished! I already knew in my heart this was not His wrath, but this makes it even more clear.
No. It is you who had better come to your senses. You seem to live to oppose the truth. You have been shown that everyone is resurrected to either eternal life or eternal damnation. You refuse to see it. I invite readers to go back and read post #56. You either understand it or you don't.
As for you katjonjj, you seem quite willing to flush the truth down the toilet for the sake of a debate. Go waste someone else's time.
FINAL COMMENT
Then show us all how ETERNAL DAMNATION is equal to BURNING IN FIRE FOR ETERNITY....
That is what was asked. HOW do YOU connect ETERNAL DAMNATION with ETERNAL FIRE?
Where does it say these two things are similar? I could live with being eternally damned... but eternally burned? Two VERY different things. IMO
Jesus' spiritual death was different from the spiritual death of the unbeliever. His spiritual death lasted for 3 hours during which time He was being judged for the sins of the world. His was a substitionary spritual death of a sinnless man who bore the sins of the world in our place. Those who reject Christ will suffer an eternal spiritual death in the lake of fire.
Of course everyone reaps what they sow. If you die without believing in Christ, you reap eternal separation from God. Man can not pay the price for sin. Christ did pay the price. If Christ who paid the price, is rejected as Savior, then the one who rejected Christ can only try to earn his own salvation. Since Christ already paid the penalty for sin, the basis for the unbelievers condemnation becomes his own human good. Human righteousness is always rejected by God and as seen in Revelation 20:11-15, the unbelievers works are what condemns him.
Your statements don't add up. You say that Christ's payment for our sins lasted 3 hours. That means that if He took our place and His punishment was a substitute for what people deserve, then unbelievers would only deserve 3 hours of punishment, not eternal punishment. Mike, I understand you are trying hard to piece it all together with all the academic knowledge you have, but the whole twisted doctrine of eternally burning doesn't make sense, it's not just, and it comes from evil imaginations of men and the devil, who doesn't want people to love God. I know it's hard for you to swallow, and I assume you have a huge stake in the doctrine, but it just does not line up with the true and living God or with scripture.
Your statements don't add up. You say that Christ's payment for our sins lasted 3 hours. That means that if He took our place and His punishment was a substitute for what people deserve, then unbelievers would only deserve 3 hours of punishment, not eternal punishment.
The statements add up perfectly.
No, it does not. One more time. Try and get this though your head. The spiritual death of Christ was different from the spiritual death of the unbeliever. Since Jesus was a substitute for us, and since He was without sin, the justice of God was satisfied with the pouring out of our sins on Christ. It took God the Father 3 hours to judge every last sin of the human race. When it was over, Jesus said tetelesti. It is finished.
If a person dies having rejected Christ, his spiritual death continues throuhout all eternity. It is the same spiritual death with which he was born into the world with. It is separation from God. It means having no relationship with God. And the place where he spends eternity is in the lake of fire.
The Scriptures are clear on this. It is only by ignoring and twisting the Scriptures that people can hold to such a stupid belief that all people will be saved
Quote:
Mike, I understand you are trying hard to piece it all together with all the academic knowledge you have, but the whole twisted doctrine of eternally burning doesn't make sense, it's not just, and it comes from evil imaginations of men and the devil, who doesn't want people to love God. I know it's hard for you to swallow, and I assume you have a huge stake in the doctrine, but it just does not line up with the true and living God or with scripture.
To the contrary. I am not trying to piece anything together. It is all perfectly clear. And it is all perfectly just. Universalists cant' stomach the truth and live in fantasy land. Universalism was condemned as a heresy by the early church. And it needs to be condemned today.
Trying to get a universalist to understand the truth is an exercise in futility.
For the sake of anyone who has common sense, read this article.
No, it does not. One more time. Try and get this though your head. The spiritual death of Christ was different from the spiritual death of the unbeliever. Since Jesus was a substitute for us, and since He was without sin, the justice of God was satisfied with the pouring out of our sins on Christ. It took God the Father 3 hours to judge every last sin of the human race. When it was over, Jesus said tetelesti. It is finished.
If a person dies having rejected Christ, his spiritual death continues throuhout all eternity. It is the same spiritual death with which he was born into the world with. It is separation from God. It means having no relationship with God. And the place where he spends eternity is in the lake of fire.
The Scriptures are clear on this. It is only by ignoring and twisting the Scriptures that people can hold to such a stupid belief that all people will be saved
To the contrary. I am not trying to piece anything together. It is all perfectly clear. And it is all perfectly just. Universalists cant' stomach the truth and live in fantasy land. Universalism was condemned as a heresy by the early church. And it needs to be condemned today.
Trying to get a universalist to understand the truth is an exercise in futility.
For the sake of anyone who has common sense, read this article.
Universalists, just keep your heads buried in the sand.
Where does the bible say anything about Christ dying spiritually? I've never heard that before. If He is God, how can God die spiritually?
You are onto something with recognizing that Jesus said, "It is finished," yet it appears you don't really believe it is finished. You believe human beings have to finish it by making a wise choice.
Do you really believe that God would come up with a plan that is so horrific that many ordinary human beings can't "stomach it?" How can I be more merciful than God? Where did these feelings of love, forgiveness, and mercy come from? From the devil? Do you really believe the devil is the one who is telling me that I should love another person as myself, and not be able to "stomach" the thought of a fellow human being set on fire for all ages and not be able to extinquish the fire? The devil is the one who you think is telling me that unbelievers should be shown love, mercy, and grace since they are born into sin and are ignorant in unbelief? You think God is the one telling you, "These people deserve what they get. Sure they will be in excrutiating pain forever and they will beg me to put out the fire, but who cares? They should have thought of that earlier." Mike, examine your heart!! It's so sad that you've been a Christian since you were 5 and you've learned so much about scripture, yet you're missing the love of God. I'm tired of being aggravated at you, so I will now turn my attention to praying for you. I'm serious and I mean this in a loving way, although I'm afraid you won't see that.
The reason that trying to get a universalist to understand the truth (according to Mike555) is an exercise in futility is because we KNOW God. We know His true and divine character and we know that He is not a torturer. If you tried to convince me that my daddy was a torturer, I wouldn't believe you on that either. As I said before, I apologize to God quite often that I used to believe the horrific lie about Him. I'm thankful He's forgiving.
No, it does not. One more time. Try and get this though your head. The spiritual death of Christ was different from the spiritual death of the unbeliever. Since Jesus was a substitute for us, and since He was without sin, the justice of God was satisfied with the pouring out of our sins on Christ. It took God the Father 3 hours to judge every last sin of the human race. When it was over, Jesus said tetelesti. It is finished.
If a person dies having rejected Christ, his spiritual death continues throuhout all eternity. It is the same spiritual death with which he was born into the world with. It is separation from God. It means having no relationship with God. And the place where he spends eternity is in the lake of fire.
The Scriptures are clear on this. It is only by ignoring and twisting the Scriptures that people can hold to such a stupid belief that all people will be saved
To the contrary. I am not trying to piece anything together. It is all perfectly clear. And it is all perfectly just. Universalists cant' stomach the truth and live in fantasy land. Universalism was condemned as a heresy by the early church. And it needs to be condemned today.
Trying to get a universalist to understand the truth is an exercise in futility.
For the sake of anyone who has common sense, read this article.
Universalists, just keep your heads buried in the sand.
Oh for pete's sake . . . God is LOVE . . . NOT Justice. God required no punishment and Jesus was NOT PAYMENT for our sins. Sacrifices and obedience were "training wheel" concepts for denial of our self and developing self-control over our animal drives . . . God had no use for any of it. Our sinful natures were preventing us from developing the right consciousness in "love of God and each other." We were primitive barbarians and savages "fearing God" and looking out for ourselves. Agape love was virtually non-existent . . . which is what made Jesus stand out so brightly among them.
Jesus removed the power of our sinful consciousnesses to keep us from God. It required that He subject Himself to the barbarity and ignorance of our primitive ancestors who had no clue what God was really like . . . nor what God truly wanted from us. If He had acted as the God they believed in by "smiting and dominating" them . . . He would have failed in His mission to teach and provide an unambiguous example of God's TRUE NATURE. This resulted in His NOT resisting and having to endure the barbarous injustice, scourging and horrible death of crucifixion at OUR hands . . . NOT God's demand for "Justice" over a Fruit eaten in disobedience or any other nonsense.
The Genesis stories simply capture our primordial consciousness (understanding) of the beginning of human life and chronicle the universal basic experiences (lessons) of human development. The episodes in Genesis describe our basic experiences. Teaching, at the very basic level, requires experiencing more than explanation. Words have no meaning without some base to relate them to. If you sit down and discuss all the ramifications of touching fire with your toddler, you are wasting your time. An intellect without experience cannot be taught by talking. There are certain basics in life that must be experienced.
Humankind as described in Genesis had just been born. He possessed the mere infant of a soul. A suggestion that this infant soul would be punished for its inadequacies is absurd! Naturally, this soul was inadequate to control the animal body it inhabited. In fact, in the more advanced lesson described in the myth of Noah and the flood (where humankind was surely more developed than in Eden) this understanding of youthful ignorance as the source of misbehavior was specifically verbalized, Genesis 8:21,
. . . I will never again curse the ground on account of Man, for the inclination of man's heart is evil from his youth.
Clearly, our infant consciousness wasn't expected to be able to control its body, because it was the mere seed of a soul. A seed bears no fruit. It must germinate into a full-fledged tree bearing the fruit of eternal life. Therein is probably the explanation of the kingdom of God described by Jesus in the parable of the mustard seed.
Somehow this mere seed of a soul, this minute consciousness, has to become aware of the basic process it must perform to produce eternal life. You don't try to teach calculus to a toddler. You must start with very basic concepts and build upon them. First this soul had to learn that there was something to achieve. Then it had to be given a rudimentary idea of how to achieve it.
Since the process for achieving our purpose consists of controlling our animal nature and eliminating certain destructive responses, this basic idea of selective satisfaction of our internal desires had to be conveyed to the infant soul. Left on its own in its animal body, it wouldn't have the faintest idea that there was any need to differentiate between good and bad behavior. To an animal, all responses to its inner drives are "good."
God LOVES . . . He does NOT punish . . . He refines our development and understanding so we ARE what He intends us to be . . . NOT what He demands OR ELSE!
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Two VERY different things. IMO
