News, Vatican makes attempted ordination of women a grave crime. (tradition, messages)
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The Vatican today made the "attempted ordination" of women one of the gravest crimes under church law, putting it in the same category as clerical sex abuse of minors, heresy and schism.
The new rules, which have been sent to bishops around the world, apply equally to Catholic women who agree to a ceremony of ordination and to the bishop who conducts it.
^ Okay, maybe I will say just this: How is it the Catholic church elevates women to the status of SAINTS...and indeed, even prays to the Virgin Mary herself who was SURELY greater than any apostle and understands more about the Mass than anyone else in the church, including the pope...but yet declares it to be a grave sin for a woman to seek ordination as a priest, and also tells others they may not even advocate female priests?
I think the Vatican has stated that putting it in the same article was not meant to mean it's an equal crime. Although I'm a pretty dang conservative Catholic I think the Vatican is, at times, a bit clueless about how it's messages will be heard/understood.
Still ordination of women is against the tradition and teaching of the Church. This isn't because women are inferior or bad or anything silly like that. However Catholic teaching is that women and men are different. That Christ is male, the Twelve Apostles were male, and that to be married to "mother Church" it makes sense to be male. Also from a psychological/evolutionary-psych perspective men have a greater need for a religious role-mode of their sex as men are more often estranged from their fathers than women are from their mothers. That many priests have not been remotely like role models is partly due to human frailty and partly due to a sadly sloppy screening process. (The writings of Popes for centuries are fairly clear only men of good character, and I believe they specifically mention that this means men who will not harm children, be ordained)
I guess in one sense the role of traditional Catholic women was as sisters and mothers, but there is flexibility to what that can mean. I'm not entirely unsympathetic those who want to state more about the strength and perseverance of Mother Mary. And in the New Testament we hear of women who run businesses (Lydia was a seller of purple, which I think means she likely was a wealthy merchant as purple was luxurious, and convert by Paul) or served the community in important ways. There's also the "Virgin Martyrs" who died rather than abandon their vow to Christ and submit to forced marriages, or just sex, to pagan men. Or much later Catherine of Siena criticizing the Pope. I'm not sure how to explain it without causing offense, but I think women are seen more as advisory and teaching than defining or hierarchical. I might have to think on this though as I'm not entirely satisfied with that as an explanation of what I mean.
I think the Vatican has stated that putting it in the same article was not meant to mean it's an equal crime. Although I'm a pretty dang conservative Catholic I think the Vatican is, at times, a bit clueless about how it's messages will be heard/understood.
the fact that it is even a "grave crime" is enough for me. How ridiculous.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R.
Still ordination of women is against the tradition and teaching of the Church. This isn't because women are inferior or bad or anything silly like that. However Catholic teaching is that women and men are different. That Christ is male, the Twelve Apostles were male, and that to be married to "mother Church" it makes sense to be male. Also from a psychological/evolutionary-psych perspective men have a greater need for a religious role-mode of their sex as men are more often estranged from their fathers than women are from their mothers.
Huh? so women are excluded from being able to have the same equal standing in the chuch? Because traditionally the men have had a less role model? No. This is not a valid argument.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R.
That many priests have not been remotely like role models is partly due to human frailty and partly due to a sadly sloppy screening process. (The writings of Popes for centuries are fairly clear only men of good character, and I believe they specifically mention that this means men who will not harm children, be ordained)
Whist I agree that it is due to depravity on behalf of the offending priest/man, it is unconscionable for the church to continue with the line that it is the "human frailty". I am sorry - the church is rotten from the top -down with the coverups and moving on of priests who have offended, worldwide.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R.
I guess in one sense the role of traditional Catholic women was as sisters and mothers, but there is flexibility to what that can mean. I'm not entirely unsympathetic those who want to state more about the strength and perseverance of Mother Mary. And in the New Testament we hear of women who run businesses (Lydia was a seller of purple, which I think means she likely was a wealthy merchant as purple was luxurious, and convert by Paul) or served the community in important ways. There's also the "Virgin Martyrs" who died rather than abandon their vow to Christ and submit to forced marriages, or just sex, to pagan men. Or much later Catherine of Siena criticizing the Pope. I'm not sure how to explain it without causing offense, but I think women are seen more as advisory and teaching than defining or hierarchical. I might have to think on this though as I'm not entirely satisfied with that as an explanation of what I mean.
Whilst you do try to explain it, in reality all it does is confirm to a woman of the church that she is inferior to that of man.
And I went thru Catholic Schooling. Our motto was Ecclesiae Filia - - Daughter of the Church - yeah. right.
On what grounds can a woman not become a priest?
I thought a Nun was "married to god" so what in the world is the difference?
But seriously, DNick...to make it a "grave crime"?? I have to truly wonder how Jesus would feel about condemning a woman for simply wanting to serve him in such a devoted capacity.
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