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Ans good point ---- How do pre-trib rapturist get around Matt 24:29-31 which states that after the tribulation the elect are gathered from the four winds?
My view is that the rapture doctrine came into vogue in the 1800's and has ties to the Scofield reference (a bible with commentary in the margins - which I think is a no-no).
Also, it doesn't matter whether or not there is any pre-tribulation rapture or not - that has nothing to do with knowing God. We should be ready to endure tribulation whenever and wherever it comes to us. I think it is deceptive or at least presumtuous to teach people that they will not suffer in this world.
So, you believe it is a pie in the sky and has no Biblical support? Thats it?
No support??
1 Thessalonians 4:16–18 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.
1 Corinthians 15:50–54 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory
This proves nothing. Context is key here and Paul seemed to be addressing his contemporaries so as to encourage them that they hadn't missed something. I believe it was nothing more than a spiritual pep talk and it's quite a stretch to apply this to the present or future. Like I said, I need further study on this but I think this is sorely misunderstood by the dispensationalists. I think, of all things, I may be leaning towards a preterist mindset. And 1 Corinthians 15 has even less to do with a rapture.
Yes, Mike, that was my point. So if your accumulation of knowledge conflicts with your capacity to love others, then you need to ask God to show you what is wrong. Could be that your traditions are getting in the way of the working of the Spirit. I'm sorry to say, but you appear to be a robot - a man who is not free to be moved by the Spirit - a man filled with fear. You can't help anyone if you continue in that manner. You may continue in that manner for years, even your entire life (many do), but did you know that your labor can be in vain?
Heartsong
First, this thread is not about me. Second, on this thread I haven't said a thing about eternal punishment. Yet you refer to it in making an inane assumption of fear because on other threads I have warned people of the realities of eternal punishment. Third, surely you are aware that I talk about the eternal security of the believer and that salvation cannot be lost. Your comments are both inaccurate and uncalled for.
I'm waiting for the response to Mt 24 where it pretty plainly describes Christians going through tribulation greater than anything ever in the world before or after.
You seem to thing once you have "explained" something that that is the end of the matter.LOL.Nobody is required to believe your "explanations",my friend.I notice you constantly refer back to your previous posts,as if they are infallible and have to be accepted without question.They do not.They are your opinions,nothing more.People I strongly suspect are way more informed on the subjects often disagree with you,and I am not talking about other CD posters,but theologians and pastors.Your thoughts are not the final say on any matter.Dispensationalism IS the creation of one John Darby.That is the accepted belief among all theologians EXCEPT the dispensationalists who try and pretend that Darby was not the one who came up with it 1800 years or so after Christ, because that makes it obvious it is a manmade idea.
Again, dispensationalism is not the creation of John Darby or anyone else. Dispensation comes from the Greek word OIKONOMIA and refers to the 'stewardship' or 'administration' of God's plan. In Ephesians 1:10, the King James actually uses the term dispensation. 'That in the dispensation of the fullness of times ( the church-age) he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth, even in him;'
The NASB translates Eph 1:10 as 'with a view to an administration sutable to the fulness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things upon the earth.'
Dispensation refers to administration or stewardship. A change in dispensations refers to a change in the administration of God's plan. From the age of the Gentiles, to the age of Israel, to the church-age, followed by the last seven years which remains to the age of Israel, followed by the age of Christ - the Millennial kingdom.
What I post on this forum has been learned from men such as Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer who founded and was the first president of Dallas Theological Seminary. At one time, a leading and very good Seminary. And Robert B. Thieme JR. who was pastor of Berachah church in Houston TX. for over 50 years. Then there are the pastors of the churchs whose websites I post from time to time on this forum. They make available online, their classes to their local congregations. They are pastors who are trained in an isagogical, categorical and exegetical method of studying and teaching the word of God.
And certainly no one is required to believe what I post on this forum. However, those who are interested in the truth would do well to listen. If what I post offends you, then you are free to not read my posts.
What is your view about the topic? So far you have made four posts only to say Mike555 is wrong, but have not offered your own opinion.
I believe there will be a rapture before the tribulation, and Christ snatch us up and meet us (the believers) in the clouds, and we will be in heaven during the tribulation, and then return with Christ seven years later when he makes His 2nd coming and defeats Satan and establishes his 1000 year kingdom.
Thanks Finn. The doctrine of the pre-tribulational rapture seems to evoke much emotion among those who reject the reality of it.
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