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What I have done is to eliminate all potential explanations that anyone might use as a possibility for what Jesus was referring to.
In post #18, you stated the following.
''I have boiled it down to 2 possibilities:
1) Christ was wrong or the writers were wrong in their intepretation of things.
2) Some form of Partial preterism. ''
That is your stated position.
You don't accept the reality of the matter that Jesus was referring to the transfiguration and would rather believe the above.
There is absolutely no possibility of Jesus having been wrong. He was speaking about an event which had been known to Him in His deity from eternity past.
Partial Preterism has no more validity then full Preterism.
There is nothing inscrutable or ambiguous about what Jesus was referring to. The transfiguration was the fulfillment of Jesus's promise in Matthew 16:28.
Well once again that's a nice statement but you have again failed to demonstrate that. You have said much and proven little. The only grammatical reason you gave was your 'kai' explanation which was utterly destroyed by the Scriptures, grammar, and reason cited on this thread. Sorry, you see it as something that must be so, despite any exegetically good reasons, because of your a priori assumptions.
Skeptics of the Bible like to use Matthew 16:28 to discredit Jesus Christ. They say that what was promised by Jesus never happened. They are wrong.
In Matthew 16:24, Jesus was speaking to His disciples about the cost of discipleship, about taking up their cross and following Him. In Matt. 16:27 He relates the fact that He is going to come again in the glory of His Father with His angels. Then He makes the following statement.
Matthew 16:28 ''Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.''
This passage has been a source of contention between believers and skeptics. But there is no mystery to this passage at all. What and who does it refer to? The answer is given by Peter in 2 Peter 1:16-18 who was an eyewitness to the event spoken of by Jesus. Following is what Peter said.
2 Peter 1:16 For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty. 17] For when He received honor and glory from God the Father, such an utterance as this was made to Him by the Majestic Glory. ''This is My beloved Son with whom I am well pleased''--18] and we ourselves heard this utterance made from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.
Peter was referring to the transfiguration which had occurred six days after Jesus had told him and the other disciples concerning those who were standing there that would see Him coming in His kingdom. Peter relates the transfiguration with the coming of the Lord in power and majesty. The transfiguration is described in Matthew 17:1-8.
Matthew 17:1 And six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and brought them up to a high mountain by themselves. 2] And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light. 3] And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4] And Peter answered and said to Jesus, ''Lord, it is good for us to be here; If You wish, I will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.'' 5] While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and behold, a voice out of the cloud, saying, ''This is My beloved Son, With whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!'' 6] And when the disciples heard this, they fell on their faces and were much afraid. 7] And Jesus came to them and touched them and said, ''Arise and do not be afraid,'' 8] And lifting up their eyes, they saw no one, except Jesus Himself alone.
Skeptics say that believers use the transfiguration as a desperate attempt to explain Matthew 16:28. But the Apostle Peter verifies that the Lord's transfiguration is precisely what He was referring to.
The transfiguration was an extraordinary preview of the Lord's future coming in power and great glory in His kingdom majesty.
May it be that no believer's faith ever be shaken by those who would attempt to discredit the Bible and Jesus Christ.
Amen Mike, I could not of said it any better myself. Anyone seeking the truth would understand that. I believe such understandings are really made plain to believers. And to non believers, it gives them hope to believe their lie. Because non believers do not seek what is true when it comes to the reality of Christ. So they pick out the Scripture that supports their misconceptions, and then refuse to consider the other Scriptures that reveals it's truth. God really knew what he was doing when He authored the Bible.
Amen Mike, I could not of said it any better myself. Anyone seeking the truth would understand that. I believe such understandings are really made plain to believers. And to non believers, it gives them hope to believe their lie. Because non believers do not seek what is true when it comes to the reality of Christ. So they pick out the Scripture that supports their misconceptions, and then refuse to consider the other Scriptures that reveals it's truth. God really knew what he was doing when He authored the Bible.
Thanks Campbell. That is so true. To those who are seeking the truth, God will show it. But to those who reject the truth, God will deliver them over to strong delusion that they may believe the lie. And it is possible for people to become so locked into negitive volition concerning the truth, that it becomes impossible for them to ever believe anything but a lie.
09-12-2010, 08:47 PM
2K5Gx2km
n/a posts
A little note on the 'Son of Man coming...' passages which have not been dealt with in this thread but are of critical importance when interpreting the words of Christ.
Since Daniel is the sole OT reference to the 'Son of Man' and particularly the 'coming' of the Son of Man, what Daniel 7 has to say should guide are interpretations. Daniel 7 says nothing about different 'comings' - like a Tranfiguration preview 'coming'; a Triumphal Entry 'coming'; or any other 'coming' except the Second Coming with power and the establishment of the kingdom.
This is why when people create arbitrary definitions for the phrase 'Son of Man coming' that include different events like the transfiguration or the triumphal enrtry it is very self serving and arbitrary.
For example: Another passage with similar references and timing issues is Matt.10:23 '...For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.'
Now how are we to interprete the word 'comes' and the phrase 'Son of Man' in this passage? Is it the Transfiguration, the Triumphal entry, the Second coming, or something else. The next major event in the context would be the transfiguration - so that must be the reference Yet even the context in this section (v.22) is about 'enduring to the end.'
You see the problem is when you have a number of unsubstantiated and selective definitions or events, regarding a word or phrase, it is easy to pick one and 'plug it in' so when you come across a 'problem' that does not fit your paradigm you -- wait for it -- pick one of the multiple definitions or events and presto problem solved. This is even more problematic with the word 'coming' and the phrase 'Son of Man' because the two together are only found in Daniel 7, and that reference has the Second coming in view with the judgement and the establishment of the kingdom ect. ect.
The principle of this thread is whenever you find a problem text just create arbitrary events and/or definitions, surrounding a phrase or term, in order to solve the problem. Then it is so obvious not because it was derived from the text but from people scurring around trying to find events surounding a term to force it into their service for a desired end.
I am not sure how many events the phrase 'Son of Man coming...' refers to now - I think it must be around 6 or 7 at this moment - very self serving and arbitrary.
"The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men; they will kill Him, and He will be raised on the third day."
An affirmative action was foreshadowed in that of there are some; an unspecified number of those standing here when the
conflict ends, who will not taste death, until they perceive and experience the Son of man coming in His Kingdom.
Where is the Kingdom?
Is it not within you?
You are not setting your mind on THE INTERESTS OF THE SPIRIT, only that of men, who wait for signs of a physical manifestation.
I have for years been intrigued with the way in which religions are alike, having an anguished history, portraying themselves as the
chosen people who are surrounded and outnumbered, subconsciously influencing every event within their own belief systems.
"The death of Christ caught man’s fancy for sacrifice, but his life and speech caught mine; love for all humanity."
"The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men; they will kill Him, and He will be raised on the third day."
An affirmative action was foreshadowed in that of there are some; an unspecified number of those standing here when the
conflict ends, who will not taste death, until they perceive and experience the Son of man coming in His Kingdom.
Where is the Kingdom? Is it not within you?
You are not setting your mind on THE INTERESTS OF THE SPIRIT, only that of men, who wait for signs of a physical manifestation.
I have for years been intrigued with the way in which religions are alike, having an anguished history, portraying themselves as the
chosen people who are surrounded and outnumbered, subconsciously influencing every event within their own belief systems.
"The death of Christ caught man’s fancy for sacrifice, but his life and speech caught mine; love for all humanity."
Thanks for jogging past all the confusion and pointing out the "obvious," Jerwade.
09-13-2010, 02:26 PM
2K5Gx2km
n/a posts
By affirming a physical appearance and a physical manifistation of the kingdom does not necessitate a denial of the present spiritual kingdom of Christ among and in believers.
The kingdom in one sense was already spiritually present when Christ was ministering (Matt.12:28, 16:19, 21:43 Luke 17:20-21; John 3:3-7). If the kingdom was already present in a spiritual sense when Christ said this (Matt.16:28) He would not be talking about that kingdom but the future kingdom in all its glory and power when He returned.
Furthermore, in the above verses (Matt.12:28, 16:19, 21:43 Luke 17:20-21; John 3:3-7) the point might be that the King of the present spiritual kingdom (the good news taking root in the hearts of people – John 3:3-7) is in their midst not that the kingdom itself and all its glory and manifestation was present. The keys of the kingdom (16:19) are the power of the kingdom or the power of the King who rules that kingdom – and His delegated authority to those who believe in order to do the work of the King. The taking away of the kingdom and giving it to another (21:43) is just the offer given by the King being rejected by the Jewish leadership – they did not want Him to rule over them. In other words because of their rejection they were not going to part of the future coming kingdom nor the present spiritual kingdom.
This verse combined with the Matt.10:23 seems to suggest the second coming which is likened to the first - A PHYSICAL APPEARANCE - but with power and glory, and judgment, and ruling from His throne in Jerusalem.
This makes complete sense in Luke 17:20-25; the spiritual kingdom that is already among you and in your midst will not come with observation by which is meant that it does not come by way of process over a long period of time but suddenly as lightning flashes from one part of heaven to another so will the Son of Man come in the full manifistation of His kingdom. There is going to be a time when the Son of Man is not here with you physically and you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man and will not see it but know that when I return it will be with power and glory but first I must suffer manny things and be rejected by this generation.
Luke puts the days of the Son of Man, that they will once again see, after His suffering.
The transfiguration was the fulfillment of Matthew 16:28. John was the last apostle to die, and that was around 100 A.D. The other apostles were dead well before that. From the time that Jesus made His statement in Matthew 16:28 to the time of the death of the last of the apostles, these things happened.
1) The Transfiguration.
2) Jesus was crucified, resurrected, ascended, and seated at the right hand of God the Father where He currently is.
3) The beginning of the church-age on the day of Pentecost.
4) The destruction of the Jewish temple and the city of Jerusalem.
And that's it. No secret appearances of Jesus. Nothing within the lifetime of any of the apostles except for the transfiguration that even remotely fulfills the promise of Jesus in Matthew 16:28.
Followng are six links with excerpts which give good information concerning the fact that the transfiguration was the fulfillment of Jesus' promise in Matthew 16:28.
Excerpt:
Peter, James, and John received a vision of the future kingdom and glory of Christ. They saw Him coming in His kingdom.
Matthew 16:28 | Learn The Bible
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- Excerpt:
The presence of Moses and Elijah are associated with the kingdom, they were expected by the Jewish people to return at the end of the age with the Messiah. This is why Peter wanted to build them tabernacles. He thought the kingdom had arrived with their being present and seeing Jesus glorified.
In each Gospel that speaks of it, the transfiguration immediately follow the promise of not tasting death before seeing the kingdom of the Son of Man. And not only so, but Peter (in his second Epistle, 1:16), when speaking of this scene, declares that it was a manifestation of the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He says that the word of prophecy was confirmed to them by the view of His majesty; so that they knew that whereof they spoke, in making known to them the power and the coming of Christ, having beheld His majesty. In fact it is precisely in this sense that the Lord speaks of it here, as we have seen. It was a sample of the glory in which He would hereafter come, given to confirm the faith of His disciples in the prospect of His death which He had just announced to them.
Preterism and Matthew 16:28
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- Excerpt:
That verse could lead you to believe that somewhere in this world are some very old men! What does Christ mean? I believe what Christ was saying can be translated, "Some of you standing here will see the Son of Man coming in His royal majesty before you die." The Greek word translated "kingdom" (basileia) is used over 160 times in the New Testament. It is correct to render it not only as "Kingdom," but also as "the kingliness of the King" "regal splendor" or "royal majesty." The emphasis in verse 28 is on the coming of the King Himself in His royal majesty.
A Preview of the Second Coming--Part 1 - John MacArthur
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- Excerpt:
This is Peter’s narrative of what he saw on the Mount of Transfiguration. In verse 16 he affirms to his audience that he was not telling them a tale when he told them about the power and coming of Jesus. He was an eyewitness of His majesty. It is noteworthy that the Greek word translated "coming" in verse 16 is our favorite word, parousia. Peter associates the term parousia with the Mount of Transfiguration event. Matthew 16:28 states that some of the disciples would not taste death until they saw the Son of Man coming in His kingdom. Mark 9:1 states that some of the disciples would not taste death until they saw the kingdom come with great power. Peter writes that he was not telling a tale when he made known to his audience the power and coming of Jesus. There you have it. If we allow Scripture to interpret Scripture, we see that Matthew 16:28 and Mark 9:1 are time statements which were fulfilled at the Mount of Transfiguration.
Matthew 16:28 - ATime Statement For What?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- Excerpt:
Third, the transfiguration confirmed that the kingdom of the Messiah would be characterized by glory. In the transfiguration the three selected disciples saw a foretaste of the glory and victory of Jesus. This posture of victory would be even clearer to them after Jesus' resurrection, and it was really only then that the disciples began to put it all together. But for now this scene encouraged the disciples. It showed them that Jesus was indeed the glorified Son of God.
"The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men; they will kill Him, and He will be raised on the third day."
An affirmative action was foreshadowed in that of there are some; an unspecified number of those standing here when the
conflict ends, who will not taste death, until they perceive and experience the Son of man coming in His Kingdom.
Where is the Kingdom?
Is it not within you?
You are not setting your mind on THE INTERESTS OF THE SPIRIT, only that of men, who wait for signs of a physical manifestation.
I have for years been intrigued with the way in which religions are alike, having an anguished history, portraying themselves as the
chosen people who are surrounded and outnumbered, subconsciously influencing every event within their own belief systems.
"The death of Christ caught man’s fancy for sacrifice, but his life and speech caught mine; love for all humanity."
Jesus' statement in Matthew 16:28 was a reference to the transfiguration. Nothing else.
All three members of the Trinity indwell the body of the Church age believer. But the kingdom of God is not inside the believer. Rather, there is a spiritual sense in which the believer is in the Kingdom of God. The physical political kingdom will be ushered in when Jesus returns to the earth at the end of the Tribulation.
A little note on the 'Son of Man coming...' passages which have not been dealt with in this thread but are of critical importance when interpreting the words of Christ.
Since Daniel is the sole OT reference to the 'Son of Man' and particularly the 'coming' of the Son of Man, what Daniel 7 has to say should guide are interpretations. Daniel 7 says nothing about different 'comings' - like a Tranfiguration preview 'coming'; a Triumphal Entry 'coming'; or any other 'coming' except the Second Coming with power and the establishment of the kingdom.
I'm just going to deal with this part of your post.
Dan 7:13-14
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Verse 13 is speaking of Christ "coming in the clouds of heaven" into the presence of "the most high", and there being presented his power and kingdom. It is not describing his "coming to earth" to establish that kingdom on earth.
Verse 14 describes his earthly reign, but the coming mentioned in verse 13 is not Christs coming to earth, but it is describing his coming before the most high God in the clouds of heaven.
Now when Christ ascended after the resurrection, he rose up into the clouds and that is when he "came in the clouds" before the most high, and he at that time entered into his power and kingdom. But he has not yet returned and established it on earth. When Christ said ...
"Verily I say unto you, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in(among) his kingdom"
... he could have meant that they would see him ascend into heaven in the clouds when he rose to the father and was presented before the most high as Daniel prophesied.
Peace ..
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You have said much and proven little. The only grammatical reason you gave was your 'kai' explanation which was utterly destroyed by the Scriptures, grammar, and reason cited on this thread. Sorry, you see it as something that must be so, despite any exegetically good reasons, because of your a priori assumptions. 
