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Jesus was born the Christ. He is the Christ. He did not become or achieved Christhood.
Sorry, Enow . . . your more abstract magical views are one thing . . . but you cannot just write off the maturation process that ALL humans have to go through. There is no way the infant Jesus had any Christlike powers or traits. There is no way the toddler Jesus had any either. He gradually acquired them in the natural human maturation process over time as the Father taught Him. What do you think the transfiguration was really all about? It represented the full blossoming of the Holy Spirit in His human consciousness . . . His graduation ceremony.
The Holy Spirit is God. He is co-equal with God the Father and with God the Son.
Acts 5:3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4] Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men, but to God.You can't lie to a force, you lie to a person. In this case the Person of God the Holy Spirit.
Romans 8:26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27] And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for with groanings too deep for words:' A force can't intercede with groans. Only a person can. And a force is not referred to with a personal pronoun.
Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. The Holy Spirit is spoken of as a Person.
Acts 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them. The Holy Spirit gives commands.
There's more, but that should do
Thanks Mike. Nice to read a Christian quoting a basic truth from scripture. The Holy Spirit is co-equal, co-eternal, and is to be worshiped as God as much as the Father and the Son. Anyone who denies this denies who God is and will not be saved.
If an American Indian wishes to renew the old ways of contacting the Great Spirit to experience the phenomenon of drunkenness and to christianize this Great Spirit, he calls that spirit the "Holy Spirit", I would have to say by the scriptures that it is not the Holy Spirit.
If a medium that calls forth familiar spirits and decides to christianize her practise by calling that spirit, the Holy Spirit, I would have to say by the scriptures that it is not the Holy Spirit.
And yet in 1 John 4th chapter, believers are warned not to believe every spirit but test them. That line of discernment was given that greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world. What is in the world will be felt in the world: believers need not be chasing after signs and wonders.
Other spirits in the world want to share in that spotlight that should only be on Jesus Christ as it is His name that is above every other name. These other spirits causes chaos and confusion within the service and yet God is not the author of such phenomenons.
1 Corinthians 14: 32And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
Feel free to share your experience of what you believe to be the Holy Spirit, but do know that just because other people tell you that was the Holy Spirit, doesn't mean that it was.
I do not doubt your experience, just as I do not doubts these other supernatural experiences in the world as the Bible says it is real, but testifies to them as being an abomination for those that pursue it. The experiences will occur even to believers which is why they are warned not to believe every spirit.
1 John 4: 1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 4Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 5They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
I had experienced the phenomenon of being pushed from behind three times as if motioning me to go forward when the others have and were doing body twitchings and minor convulsions on the floor. It was after that event that the Lord helped me to discern that my being pushed from behind three times by an unseen hand is that which is in the world as obviously what I was seeing what others were doing was nothing but chaos & confusion.
Why on earth are you attacking American Indians in order to "prove" or defend your dogma. It's such a pathetic way to argue. I'm offended by it. My ancestors, the Cherokee were mercilessly slain by Christians from Europe. If they want to call God "Great Spirit", what is that to you? It is this kind of crap that makes me consider completely disassociating myself from the "Christian" religion. I'm completely sick of the smug satisfaction sported by dogmatic evangelical fundamentalist types.
Why on earth are you attacking American Indians in order to "prove" or defend your dogma. It's such a pathetic way to argue. I'm offended by it. My ancestors, the Cherokee were mercilessly slain by Christians from Europe. If they want to call God "Great Spirit", what is that to you? It is this kind of crap that makes me consider completely disassociating myself from the "Christian" religion. I'm completely sick of the smug satisfaction sported by dogmatic evangelical fundamentalist types.
You truly have the right to feel outraged by this unthoughtful judgment about the American Indians...I have always been fascinated by the simplicity of their spirituality...I like that!
The Great Spirit = The Almighty God
The Creator = IS HE who created ALL out of his UNCONDITIONAL LOVE.
Off topic question: really...you are Cherokee descent...?
Thanks Mike. Nice to read a Christian quoting a basic truth from scripture. The Holy Spirit is co-equal, co-eternal, and is to be worshiped as God as much as the Father and the Son. Anyone who denies this denies who God is and will not be saved.
Nothing like a good ol creed to rattle em...
Creeds don't rattle anybody around here, twin. They produce sighs, possibly, but no rattling. We are not frightened off by inquisitions, crusades, threats of being set on fire by an agape Creator for eternity, name-calling, etc. Carry on.
Sorry, Enow . . . your more abstract magical views are one thing . . . but you cannot just write off the maturation process that ALL humans have to go through. There is no way the infant Jesus had any Christlike powers or traits. There is no way the toddler Jesus had any either. He gradually acquired them in the natural human maturation process over time as the Father taught Him. What do you think the transfiguration was really all about? It represented the full blossoming of the Holy Spirit in His human consciousness . . . His graduation ceremony.
Seems scriptures disagree.
Matthew 1:16And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
Seems prophecy disagree as well.
Matthew 2:4And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.
Seems the angels knew what they were talking about.
Luke 2: 8And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. 9And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid. 10And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. 11For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.12And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger. 13And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, 14Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men. 15And it came to pass, as the angels were gone away from them into heaven, the shepherds said one to another, Let us now go even unto Bethlehem, and see this thing which is come to pass, which the Lord hath made known unto us.
Present tense was used in reference to the Christ at His birth.
Why on earth are you attacking American Indians in order to "prove" or defend your dogma. It's such a pathetic way to argue. I'm offended by it. My ancestors, the Cherokee were mercilessly slain by Christians from Europe. If they want to call God "Great Spirit", what is that to you? It is this kind of crap that makes me consider completely disassociating myself from the "Christian" religion. I'm completely sick of the smug satisfaction sported by dogmatic evangelical fundamentalist types.
There are other spirits in the world and the Great Spirit is not the Holy Spirit.
This other spirit that causes drunkenness: a real supernatural event: is being experienced in christianity as it is done by calling for the Holy Spirit to come which none of the letters to the early churches would endorse such a practise. It is after the rudiment in the world in how they seek after familiar spirits and worship them and yet the real indwelling Holy Spirit does not seek that at all but to lead believers to the Son in worship, prayer, and honour.
How else do we know that this spirit of drunkenness is not the Holy Spirit?
Drunkenness is a work of the flesh whereas temperance which is self control is a fruit of the Spirit. Wayward believers will try to rationalize that by saying that joy means drunkenness, but not so. A house divided cannot stand and that is why so many wayward believers are "falling " for this phenomenon because they are suffering a thief to break through to cause this falling or to be "slain in the Spirit" even.
The Great Spirit is not the Holy Spirit.
If you do not want people calling someone else Heartsong when you are Heartsong, then you should relate to God not wishing believers to call some other spirit the Holy Spirit when it is not Him at all.
The Holy Spirit is God. He is co-equal with God the Father and with God the Son.
What does that mean, Mike? It is one thing to say that the Holy Spirit is God which I agree, but it is another thing to state a co-equalness without application. If you say that the Holy Spirit is to be worshipped and honoured and glorified with the Father and the Son, then you are wrong...if you are saying that, because scriptures does not include the Holy Spirit specifically to be honoured with the Father and the Son nor glorified with the Father and the Son. AND what's more, the Holy Spirit will not speak of himself there by when he testifies of the Son, it is doing so in seeking the glory of the Son as the Divine Witness as we as faithful witnesses should be doing as well.
How else can one say that the name of Jesus is above every other name unless the Holy Spirit is in the limelight as we ought to be as well?
I can say that the Holy Spirit is God but the will of God has the spotlight on the Son and those that have that mind of Christ are those being led by the Spirit of God.
Quote:
Acts 5:3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4] Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men, but to God.You can't lie to a force, you lie to a person. In this case the Person of God the Holy Spirit.
That is a good reference for proving the Person of the Holy Spirit.
Quote:
Romans 8:26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27] And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for with groanings too deep for words:' A force can't intercede with groans. Only a person can. And a force is not referred to with a personal pronoun.
I hate that translation. It is abominable and the cause for believers falling to the wayside, thinking tongues can be used as a prayer language.
King James Bible:
Romans 8:26Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
The Holy Spirit does not make direct intercessions which explains the use of the term "itself" : and why no sound nor groanings is being uttered, because it is Jesus Christ, the third person indicated by the pronoun "he" is the one that is searching our hearts and knowing the mind of the Spirit as Jesus is the One that intercedes for the saints in according to the will of God BECAUSE Jesus is the only Mediator between God and man.
The fact that the Holy Spirit does not need to say anything at all is proven here as well.
Matthew 6: 7But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
But because of errant translations, believers overlook the significance of those verses as well as these:
2 Timothy 2: 15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
So they wind up ignoring what is plainly stated.
Quote:
Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. The Holy Spirit is spoken of as a Person.
Again, another good scriptural reference for the Holy Spirit being A Person.
Quote:
Acts 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them. The Holy Spirit gives commands.
If we understand what that means. It is the same as this:
1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
So when the Holy Spirit speaks or gives commands, it is with this knowledge of where those words are coming from.
John 16: 13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Jesus Christ is the Good Shepherd as He is the Head of the Church: not the Holy Spirit where believers lose sight of the Son in thinking that the Holy Spirit is running the Church. The Son is running the Church through the Holy Spirit within us. Let that truth not be overlooked.
Matthew 1:16And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
Seems prophecy disagree as well.
Matthew 2:4And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.
Seems the angels knew what they were talking about.
Luke 2: 8And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. 9And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid. 10And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. 11For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.12And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger. 13And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, 14Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men. 15And it came to pass, as the angels were gone away from them into heaven, the shepherds said one to another, Let us now go even unto Bethlehem, and see this thing which is come to pass, which the Lord hath made known unto us.
Present tense was used in reference to the Christ at His birth.
I realize the futility of this request . . . but try to engage your reason, Enow . . . NOT blind scriptural assumptions. Of course He is the Christ . . . but are you suggesting He didn't need to be suckled or receive any other aid from his mother and father. Did He miraculously feed himself, clothe Himself etc. ? Did He not have to learn anything at all as He matured slowly as we all do? We disagree fundamentally about the magical things you believe Enow . . . but we are brothers in Christ . . so it pains me to have to debate with you about these absurdities. I just cannot let them slide because others are reading them. Peace.
Matthew 1:16And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
Seems prophecy disagree as well.
Matthew 2:4And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.
Seems the angels knew what they were talking about.
Luke 2: 8And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. 9And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid. 10And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. 11For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.12And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger. 13And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, 14Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men. 15And it came to pass, as the angels were gone away from them into heaven, the shepherds said one to another, Let us now go even unto Bethlehem, and see this thing which is come to pass, which the Lord hath made known unto us.
Present tense was used in reference to the Christ at His birth.
The Person destined to be a President for instance comes into the world as a baby, and grows to fulfill his destiny. That is the way of nature and it is time tested. Otherwise, Christ could have physically descended from heaven! A lot of scripture speak needs to be understood spiritually. Christ told people 2000years ago that the kingdom of God was at hand. How will you feel if you were the believers then?
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...I have always been fascinated by the simplicity of their spirituality...I like that!
We are not frightened off by inquisitions, crusades, threats of being set on fire by an agape Creator for eternity, name-calling, etc. Carry on.
