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I realize the futility of this request . . . but try to engage your reason, Enow . . . NOT blind scriptural assumptions. Of course He is the Christ . . . but are you suggesting He didn't need to be suckled or receive any other aid from his mother and father. Did He miraculously feed himself, clothe Himself etc. ? Did He not have to learn anything at all as He matured slowly as we all do? We disagree fundamentally about the magical things you believe Enow . . . but we are brothers in Christ . . so it pains me to have to debate with you about these absurdities. I just cannot let them slide because others are reading them. Peace.
Jesus had to have his diaper changed?
I wonder who taught him to walk. That's one of my favorite things to do with babies, teaching them how to walk.
The Holy Spirit is God, and yes, they are one, but there is a seperation.
Notice the plural when stating for the act of creation, but when performing the actr of creation, it is in the singular.
Genesis 1: 26And God said, Letus make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
There has to be a seperation if there is a plurality in God, but yet they are one.
Also, there has to be a seperation for the Holy Spirit to be a Person to bear witness of the Son in seeking His glory. See this post:
I read it and I noticed this "the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son."
Why would two have to bear witness?
They didn't, the Holy Spirit is God's power. It of course does what God wants it to. It has no name and has never been called a God. Jesus is a God, even a mighty God but he isn't God Almighty.
In researching the trinity I learned why it was created. I think anyone who believes in it should do the same. JMHO
Oh, in Genesis 1:26, God is talking to Jesus. Jesus is God's first creation and he was created in the likeness of God.
Honestly the more i think about the OP the less sense it makes to me. As i understand it, the holy spirit and the spirit of Christ are one and the same thing. And God is a spirit, so when we worship God and Christ we are worshiping the holy spirit.
It seems like the OP i s splitting hairs unnecessarily ...
Jesus was born the Christ. He is the Christ. He did not become or achieved Christhood.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
There is no way the infant Jesus had any Christlike powers or traits. There is no way the toddler Jesus had any either. He gradually acquired them in the natural human maturation process over time as the Father taught Him.
I agree to some extent and disagree to some extent with you both. I believe that Jesus was the Son of God at His birth. He did not become the Son of God at a later time. He was born of a mortal, human, imperfect mother and an immortal, divine, perfect Father. He therefore had both a human and a divine nature. As a human being, He was subject to death. As a divine being, He had the power to rise again after death. I don't believe He gained this power somewhere along the way. He had all of His godly attributes from the beginning. He did, however, clearly grow, mature, and learn as he went from babyhood to toddlerhood to childhood to adolescence to adulthood. He learned everything He knew (aside from the simple day-to-day things all children learn as they grow) from His Father in Heaven.
In other words, He learned to use the divine attributes He was born with.
I realize the futility of this request . . . but try to engage your reason, Enow . . . NOT blind scriptural assumptions. Of course He is the Christ . . . but are you suggesting He didn't need to be suckled or receive any other aid from his mother and father. Did He miraculously feed himself, clothe Himself etc. ? Did He not have to learn anything at all as He matured slowly as we all do? We disagree fundamentally about the magical things you believe Enow . . . but we are brothers in Christ . . so it pains me to have to debate with you about these absurdities. I just cannot let them slide because others are reading them. Peace.
What absurdities?
Was Christ born or not? Did not the angels announced the birth of Christ or not?
Your implying that the baby had to be taken care of and thus not the Christ is the absurdity here.
The Person destined to be a President for instance comes into the world as a baby, and grows to fulfill his destiny. That is the way of nature and it is time tested. Otherwise, Christ could have physically descended from heaven! A lot of scripture speak needs to be understood spiritually. Christ told people 2000years ago that the kingdom of God was at hand. How will you feel if you were the believers then?
I understand your application but when talking about God: cannot the title of the Christ be for all time since He is the Alpha and the Omega?
In regards to the Presidency, one has to be elected by the people to be President before he can be called the President, but Christ was born. The Son of the living God was Christ before He was born...just as He is still the Christ after His ascension.
Was Christ born or not? Did not the angels announced the birth of Christ or not?
Your implying that the baby had to be taken care of and thus not the Christ is the absurdity here.
Jesus was the Christ from birth, Enow . . . let's just leave it at that. The details of our views are simply not compatible . . . I do not believe in anything magical or supernatural about it. Peace in Christ's love,
Mystic
I read it and I noticed this "the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son."
Why would two have to bear witness?
Eccelsiastes 4: 12And if one prevail against him, two shall withstand him; and a threefold cord is not quickly broken.
I believe this verse above is the basis for why the witness factor is in that way below.
Deuteronomy 17:6At the mouth of twowitnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.
Deuteronomy 19:5One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
Matthew 18:16But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two orthreewitnesses every word may be established.
2 Corinthians 13:1This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
1 Timothy 5:19Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
A witness has to be established by at least two or three witnesses for good or for evil.
Honestly the more i think about the OP the less sense it makes to me. As i understand it, the holy spirit and the spirit of Christ are one and the same thing. And God is a spirit, so when we worship God and Christ we are worshiping the holy spirit.
It seems like the OP i s splitting hairs unnecessarily ...
God is One as the Holy Spirit, The Son, and the Father are One.
But the will of God has been made known in how we are to approach God the Father and that is through the Son: no other way. We cannot honour the Father by any other way than by honouring the Son. The moment a believer stops honouring the Son to honour someone else, even the Holy Spirit, that believer is no longer honouring the Father. You can only honour the Father by honouring the Son. John 5:22-23 states the standard of judgment and how honouring the Son is pivotal in honouring the Father in regards to that judgment. John 13:31-32 states the glory of God is foound when glorifying the Son, you are glorifying the Father.
And since the Holy Spirit will not speak of Himself but seeks to testify so as to glorify the Son and IF the believer is being led by the Spirit of God, then the believer will be doing the same thing.
Eccelsiastes 4: 12And if one prevail against him, two shall withstand him; and a threefold cord is not quickly broken.
I believe this verse above is the basis for why the witness factor is in that way below.
Deuteronomy 17:6At the mouth of twowitnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.
Deuteronomy 19:5One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
Matthew 18:16But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two orthreewitnesses every word may be established.
2 Corinthians 13:1This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
1 Timothy 5:19Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
A witness has to be established by at least two or three witnesses for good or for evil.
Bearing witnesses doesn't equate to being a person.
1 John 5:7-8 (21st Century King James Version)
7For there are three that bear record in Heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one. 8And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and these three agree in one.
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