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What does that mean, Mike? It is one thing to say that the Holy Spirit is God which I agree, but it is another thing to state a co-equalness without application. If you say that the Holy Spirit is to be worshipped and honoured and glorified with the Father and the Son, then you are wrong...if you are saying that, because scriptures does not include the Holy Spirit specifically to be honoured with the Father and the Son nor glorified with the Father and the Son. AND what's more, the Holy Spirit will not speak of himself there by when he testifies of the Son, it is doing so in seeking the glory of the Son as the Divine Witness as we as faithful witnesses should be doing as well.
How else can one say that the name of Jesus is above every other name unless the Holy Spirit is in the limelight as we ought to be as well?
I can say that the Holy Spirit is God but the will of God has the spotlight on the Son and those that have that mind of Christ are those being led by the Spirit of God.
That is a good reference for proving the Person of the Holy Spirit.
I hate that translation. It is abominable and the cause for believers falling to the wayside, thinking tongues can be used as a prayer language.
King James Bible:
Romans 8:26Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
The Holy Spirit does not make direct intercessions which explains the use of the term "itself" : and why no sound nor groanings is being uttered, because it is Jesus Christ, the third person indicated by the pronoun "he" is the one that is searching our hearts and knowing the mind of the Spirit as Jesus is the One that intercedes for the saints in according to the will of God BECAUSE Jesus is the only Mediator between God and man.
The fact that the Holy Spirit does not need to say anything at all is proven here as well.
Matthew 6: 7But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
But because of errant translations, believers overlook the significance of those verses as well as these:
2 Timothy 2: 15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
So they wind up ignoring what is plainly stated.
Again, another good scriptural reference for the Holy Spirit being A Person.
If we understand what that means. It is the same as this:
1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
So when the Holy Spirit speaks or gives commands, it is with this knowledge of where those words are coming from.
John 16: 13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Jesus Christ is the Good Shepherd as He is the Head of the Church: not the Holy Spirit where believers lose sight of the Son in thinking that the Holy Spirit is running the Church. The Son is running the Church through the Holy Spirit within us. Let that truth not be overlooked.
All three members of the Godhead are co-equal and co-eternal. That means that all three members of the trinity possess in equal measure, the exact same attributes, the same essense. Each of the three Persons of the Godhead is God. And all three together are God. Three Persons who are one God. And as such, all three are due worship.
The Holy Spirit is God and as such is to be worshipped as God. To say that He is less deserving than the other two members of the Godhead is blasphemous. Now, if by worshipping the Holy Spirit you have in mind what the Holy rollers do, rolling in the isles and speaking gibberish and calling it tongues and that sort of thing, that is not worshipping the Holy Spirit. That is just idiotcy. But God the Holy Spirit is to be afforded the same respect and worship as God the Father and God the Son.
Regarding Romans 8:26, the Holy Spirit does indeed make intercession for the believer. As the passage says, 'And in the same way the Spirit who helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words.' When the believer is so troubled and finds difficulty in praying, the Holy Spirit intercedes for him with divine intensity (groanings which can't be uttered) that perfectly expresses his needs to God the Father.
Last edited by Michael Way; 09-22-2010 at 10:35 PM..
The Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost has to be seperate in order foir them to bear witness of the other, otherwise, God would be bearing witness of Himself and thus cannot be true. So there is a plurality in the One God that allows God the Father to bear witness of the Son as the Holy Spirit does as well.
John 5: 30I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. 31If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. 32There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true. 33Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth. 34But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved. 35He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light. 36But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. 37And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. 38And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Those scriptures prove God and Jesus are not one in the same. Not only are they separate but they each have their own identity. God is greater than Jesus. While yes they are in agreement with one another and have that union because of that, God isn't Jesus in the flesh and Jesus isn't God in spirit. In union means as two in agreement as in marriage but in marriage as in the union of God and Jesus, there is a head and the Bible teaches that.
All three members of the Godhead are co-equal and co-eternal. That means that all three members of the trinity possess in equal measure, the exact same attributes, the same essense. Each of the three Persons of the Godhead is God. And all three together are God. Three Persons who are one God. And as such, all three are due worship.
The Holy Spirit is God and as such is to be worshipped as God. To say that He is less deserving than the other two members of the Godhead is blasphemous. Now, if by worshipping the Holy Spirit you have in mind what the Holy rollers do, rolling in the isles and speaking gibberish and calling it tongues and that sort of thing, that is not worshipping the Holy Spirit. That is just idiotcy. But God the Holy Spirit is to be afforded the same respect and worship as God the Father and God the Son.
I agree that it is idiocy, but you have to ask yourself, how does these situations come about?
If you consider that God the Father is calling those in the world out to Himself through the Son, then those that are worshipping spirits and seeking after familiar spirits will need to depart from their practises and rudiments if they wish to be a witness of the Son and no longer pertaining to their former practises.
Example: The American Indians dance and chant for the Great Spirit to come. When this "Great Spirit" does come, they experience a drunkenness found in this phenomenon which is why they took to alcohol when they were introduced to it because it reminded of that supernatural encounter.
Jesus said that the only way we can approach God the Father is by way of the Son and that includes how we come to God in worship also.
You have taken the broad way that was created by the Nicene creed and your quote is also another assumption of man regarding the role of the Holy Spirit being One to be worshipped with the Father and the Son.
Can you not see the danger of disobeying John 14:6? The commandment of His invitation is key if one wishes to avoid the iniquity of climbing up another way in the worship service or even in prayer: John 10:1.
Is Jesus Christ the Head of the Church? Is Jesus Christ the only Mediator between God and man? And yet whenever the spotlight is moved from the Son Whose name is above every other name to the Holy Spirit, we get idiocy because they are leaving the door wide open for these false spirits to move in coincidentally when the spotlight is on the Holy Spirit OR EVEN when they move in without inciting them to so that they can put the spotlight on the Holy Spirit in the worship service as it happened in the "holy laughter" movements in 1994 and still going on today to sem extent.
Seriously, Mike. You would have a hard time stopping a movement of the "Spirit" if you allow at any time the spotlight to be on the Holy Spirit.
If the Holy Spirit will not speak of himself and He dwells in us so that we, together, shall bear witness of the Son in seeking His glory, then how can anyone at any time be speaking of the Holy Spirit in seeking His glory if the Holy Spirit would not lead anyone to do that?
It is the mind of Christ that I am contending for and pointing out the role of the Holy Spirit as He is sent to dwell within us to do.
In John 13:31-32 & John 17:1-5, twice now the Holy Spirit has been left out in scriptures in regards to worship and glory. John 5:22-23 states a standard of judgment raised and by that judgment, we can only honour the Father by honouring the Son: not by honouring the Holy Spirit.
You may consider this blasphemous, but you are assuming that the will of God includes the Holy Spirit to be worshipped and to be glorified when in light of the world and the practises within as well as other false spirits in the world, God is calling and reconciling the world to Himself through the Son to call those that seek after familiar spirits and worship them to depart from them and froim their former lifestyles to be a witness of
the Son in worship and in life. That is having the mind of Christ when it is only His name that is above every other name, including the Holy Spirit.
When we worship God as God, we can only do so through the Son, for that is how we worship the Father as well. To worship all of God does not require singling out the Holy Spirit to be worshipped from the other two. The name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost is Jesus Christ as the disciples did baptize in that name and not in the offices of the Three.
The will of God and the mind of Christ is to exclude any rudiment that the world could add to christianity in putting the spotlight on the Holy Spirit.
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Regarding Romans 8:26, the Holy Spirit does indeed make intercession for the believer. As the passage says, 'And in the same way the Spirit who helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words.' When the believer is so troubled and finds difficulty in praying, the Holy Spirit intercedes for him with divine intensity (groanings which can't be uttered) that perfectly expresses his needs to God the Father.
Mike: I just would not use that version at all. The King James Bible holds the true meaning of His words. The Holy Spirit intercedes in a passive background manner as He serves as a means by which Jesus Christ Who searches our hearts and knoweth the mind of the Spirit is the REAL One that intercedes for us in according to the will of God because He is the Only Mediator between God and man. This is why no sound is being uttered at all whereas your version implies sounds being made. Matthew 6:7-8 reproves all notions that the Holy Spirit has to say anything at all.
I agree that it is idiocy, but you have to ask yourself, how does these situations come about?
If you consider that God the Father is calling those in the world out to Himself through the Son, then those that are worshipping spirits and seeking after familiar spirits will need to depart from their practises and rudiments if they wish to be a witness of the Son and no longer pertaining to their former practises.
Example: The American Indians dance and chant for the Great Spirit to come. When this "Great Spirit" does come, they experience a drunkenness found in this phenomenon which is why they took to alcohol when they were introduced to it because it reminded of that supernatural encounter.
Jesus said that the only way we can approach God the Father is by way of the Son and that includes how we come to God in worship also.
You have taken the broad way that was created by the Nicene creed and your quote is also another assumption of man regarding the role of the Holy Spirit being One to be worshipped with the Father and the Son.
Can you not see the danger of disobeying John 14:6? The commandment of His invitation is key if one wishes to avoid the iniquity of climbing up another way in the worship service or even in prayer: John 10:1.
Is Jesus Christ the Head of the Church? Is Jesus Christ the only Mediator between God and man? And yet whenever the spotlight is moved from the Son Whose name is above every other name to the Holy Spirit, we get idiocy because they are leaving the door wide open for these false spirits to move in coincidentally when the spotlight is on the Holy Spirit OR EVEN when they move in without inciting them to so that they can put the spotlight on the Holy Spirit in the worship service as it happened in the "holy laughter" movements in 1994 and still going on today to sem extent.
Seriously, Mike. You would have a hard time stopping a movement of the "Spirit" if you allow at any time the spotlight to be on the Holy Spirit.
If the Holy Spirit will not speak of himself and He dwells in us so that we, together, shall bear witness of the Son in seeking His glory, then how can anyone at any time be speaking of the Holy Spirit in seeking His glory if the Holy Spirit would not lead anyone to do that?
It is the mind of Christ that I am contending for and pointing out the role of the Holy Spirit as He is sent to dwell within us to do.
In John 13:31-32 & John 17:1-5, twice now the Holy Spirit has been left out in scriptures in regards to worship and glory. John 5:22-23 states a standard of judgment raised and by that judgment, we can only honour the Father by honouring the Son: not by honouring the Holy Spirit.
You may consider this blasphemous, but you are assuming that the will of God includes the Holy Spirit to be worshipped and to be glorified when in light of the world and the practises within as well as other false spirits in the world, God is calling and reconciling the world to Himself through the Son to call those that seek after familiar spirits and worship them to depart from them and froim their former lifestyles to be a witness of
the Son in worship and in life. That is having the mind of Christ when it is only His name that is above every other name, including the Holy Spirit.
When we worship God as God, we can only do so through the Son, for that is how we worship the Father as well. To worship all of God does not require singling out the Holy Spirit to be worshipped from the other two. The name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost is Jesus Christ as the disciples did baptize in that name and not in the offices of the Three.
Among other names by which God is called, individually, the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit is Jehovah -Yaweh. Each of the three individually is called by that name. The plural name is Elohim. The name of the humanity of Christ is Jesus. It is not the name of His deity.
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The will of God and the mind of Christ is to exclude any rudiment that the world could add to christianity in putting the spotlight on the Holy Spirit.
It seems that you are equating worship of the Holy Spirit with holy roller activity. As I said, that is not worship.
But quite simply, God is worthy of worship. The Holy Spirit is God and therefore the Holy Spirit is worthy of worship. In their nature- their essence- the three members of the Godhead each possess in equal measure - Sovereignty, Righteousness, Justice, Love, Eternal life, Omniscience, Omnipresence, Omnipotence, Immutability, and Veracity. In this way, they are One.
Isaiah 6:8 which speaks of the Lord is applied to the Holy Spirit in Acts 28:25. And Psalms 18:3; 48:1 says the Lord is worthy to be praised. Matthew 14:33 says that God is to be worshiped.
As God, the Holy Spirit is worthy of worship irrespective of the distortions that people get involved with, such as the holy rollers who froth at the mouth, roll in the isles, speak gibberish, and 'get the ghost'.
The Holy Spirit is the power source in the Christian life. The highest form of worship is learning Bible doctrine- metabolizing into your soul the word of God which results in spiritual growth. To be able to do this requires being filled with the Spirit (Eph.5:18). The way you are filled with the Spirit is by naming your known sins to God the Father as per 1 John 1:9. Unless the believer is filled with the Spirit- in fellowship with God, his prayers go no higher than the ceiling.
The Holy Spirit is spoken of together with the Father and the Son in passages such as Matthew 28:19, John 14:16-17, 1 Cor. 12:4-6, 2 Cor. 13:14, 1 Pet. 1:2.
God can also be worshiped in song. It is perfectly appropriate to include the Holy Spirit in song.
Bourgeois’s composition (1551) has these lines:
Praise God, from whom all blessings flow,
Praise Him, all creatures here below;
Praise Him above ye heavenly hosts;
Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.
Heber’s famous song (1826) has these lyrics:
Holy, holy, holy! Lord God Almighty!
All thy works shall praise thy name, in earth and sky and sea;
Holy, holy, holy! Merciful and mighty!
God in three persons, blessed Trinity!
I think you said one time that the Holy Spirit doesn't speak of Himself. That is not what John 16:13 says. The passage says ''But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. In the same way, Jesus said in John 5:30 ''I can do nothing on My own initiative As I hear, I judge;. and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
In their plan for man, The Father sent the Son, and the Father and the Son sent the Spirit. But they are in essence, co-equal and co-eternal, and all three are therefore worthy of praise, honor, and glorification based on their deity, regardless of each one's role in their dealings with man.
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Mike: I just would not use that version at all. The King James Bible holds the true meaning of His words. The Holy Spirit intercedes in a passive background manner as He serves as a means by which Jesus Christ Who searches our hearts and knoweth the mind of the Spirit is the REAL One that intercedes for us in according to the will of God because He is the Only Mediator between God and man. This is why no sound is being uttered at all whereas your version implies sounds being made. Matthew 6:7-8 reproves all notions that the Holy Spirit has to say anything at all.
There's really no difference. The meaning is the same in either translation. It may be that you are a King James only person and reject any other translation. I use both the NASB and KJ's myself. But as I said, the meaning of Romans 8:26 is that when the believer is so troubled and finds difficulty in praying, the Holy Spirit intercedes for him with divine intensity (groanings which can't be uttered) that perfectly expresses his needs to God the Father. The Holy Spirit helps the believer when the believer doesn't know what to ask for.
Groanings to deep for words = Groanings which cannot be uttered.
Among other names by which God is called, individually, the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit is Jehovah -Yaweh. Each of the three individually is called by that name. The plural name is Elohim. The name of the humanity of Christ is Jesus. It is not the name of His deity.
Then explain why the disciples did not baptize in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost, but baptized in the name of Jesus. They were commanded to and yet only in the name of Jesus were they baptizing in.
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It seems that you are equating worship of the Holy Spirit with holy roller activity. As I said, that is not worship.
As God, the Holy Spirit is worthy of worship irrespective of the distortions that people get involved with, such as the holy rollers who froth at the mouth, roll in the isles, speak gibberish, and 'get the ghost'.
Again, I say this: whenever anyone honours or worship the Holy Spirit, trouble can come at the service.
I have a brother that had believed the way I do until such a time when he was in a church in India when that church decided to honour the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost. This was the gist of his testimony:
He was praying when all of a sudden, what felt like liquid nitrogen seeping through his skull, the brother found himself confessing against his will an apology to the Holy Spirit for not believing that "he" operated in this manner.
It did not matter when I pointed out to him that they were not supposed to honour the Holy Spirit because the indwelling Holy Spirit seeks to lead us into honouring the Son.
It did not matter that I pointed out that God would prefer a willing confession: and not a forced one.
It did not matter that I pointed this scriptures out to him.
1 Corinthians 14: 32And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
Because they addressed the Holy Spirit in worship to honour the Holy Spirit, to his mind, that had to be the Holy Spirit.
That is how the holy laughter movement went nationwide in 1994 across all the denomenations: and not just streamlined Pentecostal/ Charismatic anymore. Everybody just went with it. They call on the name of the Holy Spirit to come and they had other manifestations as well.
So ask yourself this and discern by His grace: how can this lump be so strong in all the denomenations? What little leaven exists in all the denomenations that could allow this lump to occur?
Worshipping and honouring the Holy Spirit...thanks to the Nicene creed which I should point out was done in ecumenical format, gathering grapes of thorns and figs of thistles with the RCC. Then you have unscriptural hymnals singling out the Holy Spirit in worship and not just having a verse dedicated to Him.
There you have the leaven that leavens into the whole lump.
When these phenomenon occurs when they honour the Holy Spirit and worship the Holy Spirit, you would have a hard time convincing any of them that it is not of the Lord. What would be more exasperating for you is that they would declare that they only call on the name of the Holy Spirit for these phenomenon to occur and yet you would insist that this is not of God.
Answer the question, Mike. Why would God allow these phenomenons to occur when they were only addressing and calling on the Holy Spirit?
I say to you that they were not supposed to be addressing nor honouring the Holy Spirit in the worship service in the first place. We, that are led by the Spirit of God, are to be seeking to honour the Son by testifying of Him in seeking His glory and thereby the glory of God the Father.
Your way.. the broad way...allows apostasies...idiocies to occur.
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There's really no difference. The meaning is the same in either translation. It may be that you are a King James only person and reject any other translation. I use both the NASB and KJ's myself. But as I said, the meaning of Romans 8:26 is that when the believer is so troubled and finds difficulty in praying, the Holy Spirit intercedes for him with divine intensity (groanings which can't be uttered) that perfectly expresses his needs to God the Father. The Holy Spirit helps the believer when the believer doesn't know what to ask for.
Groanings to deep for words = Groanings which cannot be uttered.
In spite of Matthew 6:7-8 and 1 Timothy 2:5, you still get hung up over Romans 8:26-27?
I'm not going to argue the point since you are not seeing the error, but you will have a hard time reproving the use of tongues as a prayer language which is gibberishness when they can point to that verse and say "See?"
Those scriptures prove God and Jesus are not one in the same. Not only are they separate but they each have their own identity. God is greater than Jesus. While yes they are in agreement with one another and have that union because of that, God isn't Jesus in the flesh and Jesus isn't God in spirit. In union means as two in agreement as in marriage but in marriage as in the union of God and Jesus, there is a head and the Bible teaches that.
Matthew 1:Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Matthew 1:Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
That isn't proof that Jesus is God. Jesus never claimed to be God, he claimed to be God's son. Anything else is denying that he is God's son which the Bible clearly speaks against.
1 John 5:5-12
5 And who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? 6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. 7 And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth. 8 For there are three who bear witness, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three agree in one. 9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for the witness of God is this, that he hath borne witness concerning his Son. 10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in him: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he hath not believed in the witness that God hath borne concerning his Son. 11 And the witness is this, that God gave unto us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath the life; he that hath not the Son of God hath not the life.
Also:
1 John 1:1-3
1 That which was from the beginning, that which we have heard, that which we have seen with our eyes, that which we beheld, and our hands handled, concerning the Word of life
2 (and the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare unto you the life, the eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us); 3 that which we have seen and heard declare we unto you also, that ye also may have fellowship with us: yea, and our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ:
Verse 2 "which was with the Father"
Didn't say that was God but someone "with" God. It was Jesus, separate with his own identity.
Have you ever researched the trinity, it's creation and why it was created? Men with their ideas thought it was a good idea but it's been misleading many since it's creation and it does deny that Jesus is God's son because it claims that they aren't separate individuals but one in the same.
That isn't proof that Jesus is God. Jesus never claimed to be God, he claimed to be God's son. Anything else is denying that he is God's son which the Bible clearly speaks against.
You missed this reference to Jesus being God. This is the mind of Christ that we believers are supposed to have.
Philippians 2: 5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
There are other references to Jesus being God: but this should suffice.
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