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Shrimpboat: While the ELCA does put the name Lutheran in their title, IMHO, it is misleading to say that it is Lutheran. For a church to identify itself as Lutheran, most Lutheran's would say that a church or person must subscribe to the teachings contained in the Book of Concord. Obviously, in its practices and teaching The ELCA has rejected much of what is taught in the Book of Concord, and dropped any subscription to the Bible being the actual words of the living God. Why can I say that? Paul's instruction to Timothy about qualifications to be a Pastor, 1Ti 3:2 Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach
Obviously, female homosexuals don't meet the requirement, husband of one wife.
I think that's awesome! Equality for everyone!
I'm guessing you and I disagree. Oh well.
One of my three daughters is a lesbian. I knew it from the time she was just a little girl. She was born that way. She'll never be a priest or any such thing as that because she is too turned off by the way the church has treated gays. She was raised Baptist - baptized in the church, knows more about scriptures than most people her age (she's 24). But she is just too dismayed by the awful actions of religious zealots to ever get anywhere near a church ever again. I trust God with her soul. I trust him with everyone's soul.
One of my three daughters is a lesbian. I knew it from the time she was just a little girl. She was born that way. She'll never be a priest or any such thing as that because she is too turned off by the way the church has treated gays. She was raised Baptist - baptized in the church, knows more about scriptures than most people her age (she's 24). But she is just too dismayed by the awful actions of religious zealots to ever get anywhere near a church ever again. I trust God with her soul. I trust him with everyone's soul.
You have a wonderful heart, Heartsong!
We need more like you here!
I know you can quote several Biblical passages wherein are admonishments against men "lying" with men as with women. Can anybody cite a Biblical passage invoking a similar admonishment for women?
If there is none, on what basis do you chastise these women?
I know you can quote several Biblical passages wherein are admonishments against men "lying" with men as with women. Can anybody cite a Biblical passage invoking a similar admonishment for women?
If there is none, on what basis do you chastise these women?
I don't know if there is a biblical basis, but in medieval times, they were burned at the stake for witchcraft.
You see, most straight men are sexually excited by the thought of two women in a sexual relationship, and in finding themselves having such "evil thoughts", the high-ranking priests of the day could only conclude that they felt that way because the lesbians had bewitched them.
Ah, but he who celebrates his sin and whose sin is central to who they are.........."I have sinned, I plan to continue in sin and have no intention of to stop sinning or even try because God made me this way." and that is a part big part of what I don't understand. I thought the nature of being a Christian was to try to live a moral life. Guess things have changed to keep the seats and collection plate full?
Comparing allowing women to become ministers and allowing people who openly commit and embrace sexual sin to become ministers, I didn't get that either.
I don't think that God met for sexual acts to be acts of brutality or for them to be central to who we are.
I don't know if there is a biblical basis, but in medieval times, they were burned at the stake for witchcraft.
You see, most straight men are sexually excited by the thought of two women in a sexual relationship, and in finding themselves having such "evil thoughts", the high-ranking priests of the day could only conclude that they felt that way because the lesbians had bewitched them.
OK. So, as far as you know, it is not a Biblical admonition. In that case, what make it a sin? I understand that, as you said, many men would be guilty of "lust in their hearts" (or so such), but, it seems to me, those are only problematic for those men, and it still leaves me wondering why, in the 21st Century, so many churches consider lesbians to be worthy of excommunication and shunning.
Jesus made it clear for Christians to love their enemies, not judge hypocritically, and show forgiveness. However, Paul did say, "I wrote to you in my letter (I guess previous letter) not to associate with sexually immoral people...But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother (Christian?) if he is guilty of sexual immorality...For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. Purge the evil person from among you." Christians are called to judge Biblically. I'm not the perfect Christian, but a Christian sharing the truth in love is not about condemning the other person. Keep in mind that Jesus was never about tolerance.
I choose to follow Christ when the words of Paul are in conflict with the words of Jesus. That is not to say I dismiss everything Paul wrote. But when his stuff goes against the direction of Jesus words, the choice of who to listen to is not difficult.
I agree but sadly there are parishes and pastors who are leaving the ELCA because of the decision to ordain gay clergy. Even some bishops are upset and threatening to leave. This is becoming a serious problem since the church buildings belong to the synod and the courts have to get involved to resolve who owns the building. It has divided families and parishes have had major turmoil of those against and those for gay clergy.
ELCA is losing member churches over this. From my understanding, Hope Lutheran Church is now the largest Lutheran Church in the US (maybe the world?) and while they maintain a relationship with ELCA, they no longer pay any dues to the organization (due to the ELCA's stance on homosexuals leading the church).
This isn't about "hating gays" or not allowing them to worship. Maybe this answer will be helpful:
Quote:
Q: Is Hope “anti-gay?” A: Absolutely not. We love and welcome all people at Hope, including those who identify themselves as gay. Hope is a hospital for sinners, not a hangout for morally perfect saints. We have no desire to become a “holy huddle” of self-deceiving, self-righteous, legalistic, religious bigots who oppress and hate others simply because their sin is of a sexual nature. top Q: How can we, as a church, claim to love gay people if we don’t bless, endorse, and agree with their sexual behavior? A: We do love gay people, and we don’t think that love comes with the qualifier of full agreement with all behavioral choices. Most parents love their children more than life itself, but these same loving parents don’t bless, endorse, or agree with every aspect of their children’s behavior. Best friends rarely endorse all facets of each other’s behavior, yet their love for one another is not called into question. Jesus commands us to follow his teaching and his example to love all people, without exception, and our love for gay people continues even when we announce God’s law regarding homosexual behavior.
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