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I get what you are trying to say. Christians should judge only those within their own groups. I agree.
Christians in America have no right to judge anybody on the "outside," ever. They do not have a right to legislate laws according to their scriptures and they do not have a right to condemn or judge anything people do on the "outside."
The judgment of God was not ONLY for sexual immorality. Actually, most of scripture's tirades against nations were for oppression of the poor and destitute, which most Americans, knowingly or not, support with their patriotic/religious hearts. Sodom's biggest condemnation from God was their lethargy and oppression of others through financial trickery.
That is so true! Wonder why we don't hear tirades against greed and violence, I mean there's so much of it in America you'd think it would be at the top of the preachers' list on things to preach against. I can't tell you how many of my Facebook friends (who I went to school with) are completely deluded by the right wing echo chamber and are obsessed with guns (their right to have one) and gays (their belief that God is going to burn them in hell). I just shake my head at it.
Shrimpboat: While the ELCA does put the name Lutheran in their title, IMHO, it is misleading to say that it is Lutheran. For a church to identify itself as Lutheran, most Lutheran's would say that a church or person must subscribe to the teachings contained in the Book of Concord. Obviously, in its practices and teaching The ELCA has rejected much of what is taught in the Book of Concord, and dropped any subscription to the Bible being the actual words of the living God. Why can I say that? Paul's instruction to Timothy about qualifications to be a Pastor, 1Ti 3:2 Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach
Obviously, female homosexuals don't meet the requirement, husband of one wife.
So widowed and remarried men don't qualify either? You are just being silly. What does Jesus say about homosexuality?
I'll pass on your misguided remarks about ELCA, since I responded to them in another thread.
You're right, of course. But the question this thread prompts is, does God want homosexuals leading the Church? The answer must be filtered through God's Word. Searching for that answer is not being judgmental.
I think the question should be, "Does God want people leading the Church?"
God made women and God made men. God made gays and God made straights. What God made is good.
And God made us with infinite capacity for love. We need love like we need water. Without it, all is nothing.
1 Corinthians 13:1-3 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.
Where does love come from? God and only God. God gave us the gift of loving others - our friends, our parents, our children, and yes, even our romantic loves.
1 John 4:8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
So you can scream sin all you want, but you are missing the point. Where there is love there is God. If there were no God, there would be no love.
People love people, because that is how God made us. God wants people to serve and follow Him. All people. Some people are called to ministry. The real sin would be ignoring that call. This is not for us to judge.
I think the question should be, "Does God want people leading the Church?"
God made women and God made men. God made gays and God made straights. What God made is good.
And God made us with infinite capacity for love. We need love like we need water. Without it, all is nothing.
1 Corinthians 13:1-3 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.
Where does love come from? God and only God. God gave us the gift of loving others - our friends, our parents, our children, and yes, even our romantic loves.
1 John 4:8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
So you can scream sin all you want, but you are missing the point. Where there is love there is God. If there were no God, there would be no love.
People love people, because that is how God made us. God wants people to serve and follow Him. All people. Some people are called to ministry. The real sin would be ignoring that call. This is not for us to judge.
So well said, STGirl. Anytime you actively show love, you are ministering to the Body. A lot of what goes on in ORGANIZED religion is not really ministry but more like a show. Not all of it - but some of it is show business.
I choose to follow Christ when the words of Paul are in conflict with the words of Jesus. That is not to say I dismiss everything Paul wrote. But when his stuff goes against the direction of Jesus words, the choice of who to listen to is not difficult.
Paul's writings do not conflict with the words of Jesus.
Jesus did say to judge "brothers" - those in the faith.
John 7:24: [Jesus said,] Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.
Luke 17: 3[Jesus said,] Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, 4and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”
Here are more passages from the Old Testament about reproofing (finding fault with):
Proverbs 29:1: A man who hardens his neck after much reproof will suddenly be broken beyond remedy.
Proverbs 25:12: Like an earring of gold and an ornament of fine god is a wise reproof to a listening ear.
Proverbs 10:17: He is on the path of life who heeds instruction, but he who forsakes reproof goes astray.
Proverbs 12:1: He who loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.
Ecclesiastes 7:5: It is better to listen to the rebuke of a wise man than for one to listen to the song of fools.
I think the question should be, "Does God want people leading the Church?"
God made women and God made men. God made gays and God made straights. What God made is good.
And God made us with infinite capacity for love. We need love like we need water. Without it, all is nothing.
1 Corinthians 13:1-3 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.
Where does love come from? God and only God. God gave us the gift of loving others - our friends, our parents, our children, and yes, even our romantic loves.
1 John 4:8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
So you can scream sin all you want, but you are missing the point. Where there is love there is God. If there were no God, there would be no love.
People love people, because that is how God made us. God wants people to serve and follow Him. All people. Some people are called to ministry. The real sin would be ignoring that call. This is not for us to judge.
What about the Scriptural qualifications for the office of minister (Elder)?
God actually made woman from man. This turns out to be an important detail in regards to the Hierarchy of both the Family and the Church.
1 Timothy 2:12-14
12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
Our Culture has simply decided to Rebel. Bad Idea.
Everybody has their role that God has ordained. Greater in role or 'rank' does not mean greater in value. Or Maker has designed us a certain way for a reason.
Lesbian Pastors in the House of God?
1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
Such would exclude me as well, as a woman. I do not believe God would reject my service or fail to call me if that was His will.
He doesn't reject your service. Women have always played an important role in God's service. Nevertheless, Scripture dictates that pastors/elders/bishops be men.
God actually made woman from man. This turns out to be an important detail in regards to the Hierarchy of both the Family and the Church.
This assumes you believe in the literal creation story, which I do not.
I do believe God made woman and God made man.
I do believe God made man and God made woman.
You can put them in whatever order you want.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lee9786
Everybody has their role that God has ordained. Greater in role or 'rank' does not mean greater in value. Or Maker has designed us a certain way for a reason.
Yes, indeed! So his glory will be made manifest!
Quote:
Originally Posted by lee9786
1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
Who is not obeying? Are you?
Matthew 22:36-40 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
These are the only verses I need.
Last edited by SmalltownKSgirl; 04-18-2012 at 09:06 PM..
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