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I had a dream that the rapture occurred and I was taken up with Jesus. We looked back toward the earth a few days later and saw people gathered around their TV's watching EWTN and the Pope assuring them that we were not with Jesus. They also announced that TBN, God TV and other Protestant Christian networks were joining together in a great homecoming back to the mother church. The Pope announced a meeting between the RCC and a list of Protestant denominations to consider "re-uniting" with Rome.
Not sure what it means but there it is.
Thank you for sharing that. I have something that I would like to share, also.
Origins of the Rapture
The Rapture seems to have been invented by a British religious figure named John Nelson Darby (1800-1882). He was ordained in the Church of Ireland and worked there to convert Catholics away from their folly. He was extremely pessimistic about what he saw as the state of the world and the state of the Church. He eventually left it, joining a dissident group called the Plymouth Brethren of which he soon became a prominent leader.
About 1830, he began teaching that Jesus’ coming at the end of time would be preceded by a “rapture of the saints.” Some members of his own Brethren community objected that this was not biblically founded, but Darby dismissed any criticism. It had, he claimed, been revealed to him by God.
He would eventually distance himself from this group and travel extensively in the 1860s and 1870s in Europe, the United States, and Canada, where his views were very influential. (Especially important is their appearance in the Scofield Reference Bible, which was printed first in 1909. The 1967 edition is still in print and is very popular in many Protestant fundamentalist circles.)
Despite Darby’s denials, scholars have suggested several possible influences on his Rapture views. In 1830, in Port Glasgow, Scotland, a 15-year-old girl, Margaret MacDonald, a follower of a charismatic Scottish preacher, Edward Irving, attended a healing service at which she saw a vision of a two-stage return of Christ. Darby adopted and expanded her vision.
Another suggestion traces the influence to a Jesuit priest, Manuel Lacunza (1731-1801), who was born in Chile but came to Italy in 1767 where he would spend the rest of his life. Posing as a converted Jew (under the pseudonym Juan Josafat Ben Ezra), he wrote, in Spanish, a large apocalyptic work entitled The Coming of the Messiah in Glory and Majesty. The book appeared first in 1811, 10 years after his death. In 1827, it was translated into English by none other than Edward Irving, an acquaintance of and possible influence on Darby. Given Darby’s hatred of Catholics, this possible influence adds an ironic touch!
The ‘Rapture text’ in Scripture
Those who propose the Rapture maintain that it is found in Scripture. From its first appearance, others have questioned this. What are we to think?
Written by Paul from Corinth, about 50 or 51 A.D., less than 20 years after the death of Christ, 1 Thessalonians is commonly considered the oldest book of the New Testament. It is clear that these earliest Christians were eagerly expecting Jesus’ return in glory at the end of the world. As time went on and this was delayed, two pastoral problems emerged that Paul addresses in these lines.
The first is the question of when. Paul tells them that they “know very well” that we do not know the time of the end; it will come like a thief in the night. This becomes a truism throughout the New Testament, appearing in the Synoptic Gospels (Mt 24:42,44; Mark 13:21-23, 32-33; Luke 12:39-40; 17:20-24; 21:34-35); Acts of the Apostles (1:6-7); the Letters (our passage and 2 Peter 3:9-10); and even in the Book of Revelation, not once but twice (Rv 3:3; 16:15)! Needless to say, this clear teaching has been consistently ignored by many up to the present day.
The second question seems more urgent. Since Christ’s coming was delayed, some of the community had died. Those who were left became worried: Would the dead lose out in some way at Christ’s return? Would they be at any disadvantage?
In describing Jesus’ return, Paul combines imagery drawn from two sources. From biblical apocalyptic (e.g., Daniel 7:13), he gets the coming on the clouds of heaven with the angelic trumpets. From his Greco-Roman experience, he gets the imagery of an arrival of a king on a state visit (in Greek, parousia); a joyful multitude goes out to meet him on the road and accompany him back to the city.
The dead will rise first and then we, the living, will be “snatched” up to join them in the air. Many pagan epitaphs of the time spoke of the living “being snatched” away by death. Here Paul speaks of our “being snatched” up to join the Lord and to welcome him at his return.
In the ancient world, the “air” was a scary place filled with unseen beings, many of them hostile. Together with Christ, there will be nothing to fear. Paul means this as a message of comfort and consolation for the Thessalonians. Christians do grieve the loss of their loved ones, but they should not do so “as others do who have no hope.”
The passage is about Jesus’ return in glory at the end of the world. The New Testament knows of only one such return. There is no “first” second coming!
Further, the passage says absolutely nothing about being “separated from” sinners; the whole thrust is exactly the opposite. It is about “being together with” the dead. There is no suggestion that once we meet Jesus “in the air” that he then turns around and goes back, taking us with him, to return later.
The conclusion is clear: There is no basis whatsoever in this passage for a doctrine of the Rapture. To see such a doctrine here is a complete distortion of the biblical text. If we were to examine other biblical texts often cited in support of this doctrine (e.g., Mt 24:40-41; Luke 17:34-35; Rv 3:10), the results would be the same.
What’s the Catholic Position?
As far as the millennium goes, we tend to agree with Augustine and, derivatively, with the amillennialists. The Catholic position has thus historically been "amillennial" (as has been the majority Christian position in general, including that of the Protestant Reformers), though Catholics do not typically use this term. The Church has rejected the premillennial position, sometimes called "millenarianism" (see the Catechism of the Catholic Church 676). In the 1940s the Holy Office judged that premillennialism "cannot safely be taught," though the Church has not dogmatically defined this issue.
With respect to the rapture, Catholics certainly believe that the event of our gathering together to be with Christ will take place, though they do not generally use the word "rapture" to refer to this event (somewhat ironically, since the term "rapture" is derived from the text of the Latin Vulgate of 1 Thess. 4:17—"we will be caught up," [Latin: rapiemur]).
Many spend much time looking for signs in the heavens and in the headlines. This is especially true of premillennialists, who anxiously await the tribulation because it will inaugurate the rapture and millennium.
A more balanced perspective is given by Peter, who writes,
"But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. . . . Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of persons ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be kindled and dissolved, and the elements will melt with fire! But according to his promise we wait for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace" (2 Pet. 3:8–14).
Thank you for sharing that. I have something that I would like to share, also.
*********************EDITed to save space************************************Origins of the Rapture
I stopped reading when I saw the first non truth in your post. Plus it's too much cut and paste. Just human hubris. Nothing more.
23 minutes in hell? why not 30 minutes...why not one hour? why not 5 hours?? God can do anything,right?
oh,but 23 minutes makes it sound so techinical!
obviously as lie,starting with the title.
Yes, a religious lie. How much time did the dead Jesus spend in hell ?________Acts 2 vs 27,31,32
Since Jesus taught ' sleep in death ' [ John 11 vs 11-14 ] then while in the temporary Bible's hell [ grave ] Jesus would have been in an unconscious sleep-like state of No activity.
Jesus would have learned that sleeping condition of the dead from the Hebrew OT Scriptures such as:
- Ecclesiastes 9 v 5; Psalms 6 v 5; 13 v 3; 115 v 17; 146 v 4; Daniel 12 vs 2,13
So, the Bible's hell is just mankind's stone-cold grave until resurrected out of the grave.- Rev. 1 v 18
Some to heaven - Rev. 20 v 6 - but the majority of mankind - John 3 v 13; Acts 2 v 34 - to be resurrected out of the grave during Jesus' coming 1000-year kingdom reign over earth.
My sincere prayer to God through our only mediator, Jesus Christ is that you will come to understand why I feel that way. So far the Holy Spirit confirms you do not.
Just another cult like the Mormons and the JW's, eh?
Not saying I agree with this belief, but yeah, to a hardcore fundamentalist Christian, it IS "just another cult". If the fundies on CD had it their way, Catholics, Mormons, Universalists, and JW's would be restricted from participating on the Christianity forum. Especially Universalists, since they don't believe in eternal torment.
Not saying I agree with this belief, but yeah, to a hardcore fundamentalist Christian, it IS "just another cult". If the fundies on CD had it their way, Catholics, Mormons, Universalists, and JW's would be restricted from participating on the Christianity forum. Especially Universalists, since they don't believe in eternal torment.
Dear Brother, I am a Christian, have been for 20 years. I can't help but notice that all this came about because you genuinely and sincerely wrote him a letter seeking help. you talked about the "dark side" that you might be contemplating moving to if you are not given the help you so desperately need. And that is why I write. No man has all the answers to every human need. As Christians, Jesus tells us to "go into the world and preach the gospel to all creatures, they that believe shall live and they that refuse to believe shall die" He also said that "light came and some men refuse the light." He taught us that in these last days, many will serve the god of mammon. That said, He knows who are his and who isn't. The question is are you His?
No one who are truly sincerely seeking God will ever fail in the end. No they won't. They may seem to fail here in this earthly journey but this is temporary, the road goes on even after death, and that's why we are Christians. We know that the road goes on. I cannot answer all your questions. I wouldn't dare try, bcause I will fail. If God created us then He of course knows everything that concerns us. I have a seven year old son, when he was five, he woke up from a dream and began to tell me about being in hell and his experience there, he said an angel was there protecting him so he wouldn't be hurt, he said hell had rooms and people were in the rooms and would try to get out from there by climbing up a ladder, he said they could get out if they really wanted to because at the very top Our Lord was there with his angels to rescue them but many of them fell back down into the flames unrescued because they were trapped in their minds.
I have another son who also told me that he was taken into hell by Jesus when he was about six (he is almost nine now) and saw, and heard the people being tormented there, but Jesus was with him so the fire couldn't burn him, he also described that hell is ''down, down, with rooms, and stairs and flames. The fire would blaze, the people would scream and scream", and then he told me, "but the fire was not real but only the things that they had done which were bad- the bad things were the fire"
Then my four year old woke up one morning a few months ago, you could tell that he had seen something, he said, "mommy, Jesus took me to heaven and I saw beautiful places and people", then he looked around at our room and I saw a sad look come over his face and he said slowly, "mommy it was soo beautiful there, I want to go back."
And me, Jesus entered my room when I was really depressed one night, about two years ago. I did not see His face, I did not see His form but light bounced off the wall, ceiling, floor, me, bed, everything, I have never felt so elated in my life. And He was gentle, the overwhelming presence had my eyes shut, and He said "you can come out of it anytime you want to" It was not fearful but truly loving.
God is real brother, and He knows you, He knows your fears. It may sound quaint, but in obedience to Him, I say pray. If you seek Him, then go to Him, not man for such revelation, only He alone can really answer every question you will ever have. I promise. Then remember what He said, "ye have not, because ye ask not"
I hope I've helped somewhat.
Oh and God cannot wash His hands of His creation, other wise why are we still here trying to find Him. If He did wash His hands off of us then the knowlege of Him would go as well and of course we would have been gone with that knowledge. He is not an evil God, never has been and never will be, but He does desire us to seek Him. It's like this, an adopted child always knew that he or she didn't fit in where they were, then one day the knowledge came "you are adopted, and your true parents live not too far from here" Brother, do you think that child wouldn't want to find his true parents. I know he would. And that is us, we would have lots of questions as to why we are where we are. But our parent knows and He in His own timing will let us know the answers.
God bless you.
Cora
I recently read Wiese's book 23 Minutes in Hell and couldn't help but write him a few lines. I truly was not expecting to get a response, but I did. The response seemed more like a marketing tool than anything else. I'll let you be the judge.[b]
I'd like to give you a slightly different take.
I've written several books. I get a steady stream of email from readers who want to know more. Well, the answers to most of the questions those readers ask can be found in my books.
My topic is a niche topic, and I'm very VERY small potatoes in the world of writers. And yet I'm overwhelmed with the emails and letters. Some of those letters go on for pages. I'm flattered and honored, but rarely have time to read every letter. And the long letters just make me cringe.
You wrote a VERY long letter asking a lot of tough questions.
Bill Wiese probably gets 100x the amount of mail that I get, and he probably just doesn't have the time to read every word. I'd say there's a fair chance he sends out the same email to everyone.
IMHO, he's saying, "I understand you still have questions. Read my books if you want to know what I think about this."
I have a seven year old son, when he was five, he woke up from a dream and began to tell me about being in hell and his experience there, he said an angel was there protecting him so he wouldn't be hurt, he said hell had rooms and people were in the rooms and would try to get out from there by climbing up a ladder, he said they could get out if they really wanted to because at the very top Our Lord was there with his angels to rescue them but many of them fell back down into the flames unrescued because they were trapped in their minds.
I have another son who also told me that he was taken into hell by Jesus when he was about six (he is almost nine now) and saw, and heard the people being tormented there, but Jesus was with him so the fire couldn't burn him, he also described that hell is ''down, down, with rooms, and stairs and flames. The fire would blaze, the people would scream and scream", and then he told me, "but the fire was not real but only the things that they had done which were bad- the bad things were the fire"
One of two things (or both) is readily evident:
1.) Your young children have been watching some really scary movies behind your back while you were away at work or wherever, and these fears have sunk into their subconscious minds.
2.) A fundamentalist hell fire and brimstone Sunday School teacher has been planting very sick ideas into their minds that are very unhealthy for a young child.
Please, enough with the madness!
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