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Where does the Bible exactly specifically say "The earth is flat"? It has to say those exact words.
Where does the Bible say the Earth is an oblate spheroid? Where does the original scripture say "Gays are evil"?
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Do you believe the weatherman who says the sun rose at such and such a time this morning? or the sun set?
Meteorologists understand heliocentrism. The Biblical authors did not, as the concept didn't exist yet. And we're taking about a literal reading. Joshua literally says the sun stood still. Taken literally, it means the sun moves, not the Earth. You can take that metaphorically all you want, but the person I was speaking to claimed the Bible requires no interpretation.
11Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil.
12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
13Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.
14Stand firm therefore, HAVING GIRDED YOUR LOINS WITH TRUTH, and HAVING PUT ON THE BREASTPLATE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS,
15and having shod YOUR FEET WITH THE PREPARATION OF THE GOSPEL OF PEACE;
16in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one.
17And take THE HELMET OF SALVATION, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
Against the wiles of the devil - The word rendered "wiles" (μεθοδεία methodeia), means properly that which is traced out with "method;" that which is "methodized;" and then that which is well laid - art, skill, cunning. It occurs in the New Testament only in Ephesians 4:14, and in this place. It is appropriately rendered here as "wiles," meaning cunning devices, arts, attempts to delude and destroy us. The wiles "of the devil" are the various arts and stratagems which he employs to drag souls down to perdition. We can more easily encounter open force than we can cunning; and we need the weapons of Christian armor to meet the attempts to draw us into a snare, as much as to meet open force.....
Hebrews 8:10
This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
Who is Israel? Those who are have circumcision of the heart through faith in Jesus Christ.
Hebrews 10 12 But when this priest (JESUS) had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13 Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us (believers) about this. First he says: 16 “This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”
1Corinthians 2: 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man’s spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
You make a choice to believe God's Word or not. I choose to believe it, all of it.
By the way, this is a Christian forum, isn't it?. Did the OP expect everyone would agree that homosexuality is okay? IMHO, I think the OP is looking for approval. Most people on the christian forum believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God and will disapprove.
As an aside....I just read some studies about homosexuals being born that way. Seems as though it is more of a learned behavior than natural. What say you?
Can you point out the scriptures that say the earth is flat and the sun revolves around the earth?
I have a question for you, and I really would like an answer. Is incest acceptable in your book?
I really would like to continue this discussion. I hope we can do it respectfully.
The OP is trying to make the point that you ASSUME you think it's learned behavior so you can justify, in your "mind", any prejudice.
However the FACTS speak for themselves....the rest is up to you....that is why posters bring up the flat Earth concept.
And I frankly don't care if "you" think I'm OK or not!........because I am not tolerant of intolerance and intellectual ignorance.
Now you can choose to educate yourself OR live in "darkness".....it's up to you>>>>>
Sex, in general, is a popular topic. Also homosexual sex is an issue where both sides, to me, seem to have said "You are either with us or you are against us." Even abortion isn't quite that clear cut as people will argue on the margins about things like maternal health or rape or whatever.
In the case of homosexuality it seems to be either "There is nothing wrong with it and everyone really should accept it" or "It is disgusting and everyone should discourage it." There isn't much of a middle-ground, at least not in most conversations.
Granted I've ranged in a middle-ground for much of my life, but I'm admittedly odd. In one case homosexuality in the New Testament is listed along with things like idolatry so I've always been willing to accept homosexuals as equivalent to Hindus or something. Granted they have not chosen to have certain desires, but they have chosen a system of sexual ethics that allows homosexual expression. Hindus or Buddhists or whatever may also have differing systems of sexual ethics to Christian norms. I do not agree with these other systems, and I do not act on my own same-sex attractions with anyone, but possibly different systems have some sense or at least deserve toleration.
However on the whole this does not work because as mentioned this is not an issue where you can debate cases or discuss middle-grounds very much. You are either for or against "the gays" or for or against whatever they or their opponents ask of society.
And as indicated my own views don't relate to thinking "well that's a sin I'd never do." It's certainly a sin I have contemplated many times, sometimes many times in a day. On the flip I'm not sure having such attractions makes me "liberal" compared to Fundamentalists. If I'm liberal compared to them it's probably mostly because I've never been in the Fundamentalist world to begin with, never even been Sola Scriptura, and I think my views on homosexuality are moderately conservative for a Catholic under age 40.
The Catholic Church once again seizes the "Golden Mean" on this topic. It accepts homosexuals as children of God, acknowledges the trial with the disorder, urges respect for them but calls them to chastity.
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The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
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Originally Posted by Thomas R.
Sex, in general, is a popular topic. Also homosexual sex is an issue where both sides, to me, seem to have said "You are either with us or you are against us." Even abortion isn't quite that clear cut as people will argue on the margins about things like maternal health or rape or whatever.
In the case of homosexuality it seems to be either "There is nothing wrong with it and everyone really should accept it" or "It is disgusting and everyone should discourage it." There isn't much of a middle-ground, at least not in most conversations.
Granted I've ranged in a middle-ground for much of my life, but I'm admittedly odd. In one case homosexuality in the New Testament is listed along with things like idolatry so I've always been willing to accept homosexuals as equivalent to Hindus or something. Granted they have not chosen to have certain desires, but they have chosen a system of sexual ethics that allows homosexual expression. Hindus or Buddhists or whatever may also have differing systems of sexual ethics to Christian norms. I do not agree with these other systems, and I do not act on my own same-sex attractions with anyone, but possibly different systems have some sense or at least deserve toleration.
However on the whole this does not work because as mentioned this is not an issue where you can debate cases or discuss middle-grounds very much. You are either for or against "the gays" or for or against whatever they or their opponents ask of society.
And as indicated my own views don't relate to thinking "well that's a sin I'd never do." It's certainly a sin I have contemplated many times, sometimes many times in a day. On the flip I'm not sure having such attractions makes me "liberal" compared to Fundamentalists. If I'm liberal compared to them it's probably mostly because I've never been in the Fundamentalist world to begin with, never even been Sola Scriptura, and I think my views on homosexuality are moderately conservative for a Catholic under age 40.
Interpretation? It says it literally. Nothing to interpret.
A bible translation that contains the word homosexual or homosexuality can be proven to be in error for using those specific words. From the greek and hebrew definitions you will not find those words so it IS an interpretation to specifically say that the bible is against homosexuality.
That's where the misconception seems to be clouding the issue. You see, Christians are well aware of the nature excuse for ignoring biblical moral instructions. No big mystery. The I-can't-help-it-cause- that's-just-the-way-I-am excuse has been around for millenia. All good and well. However, Christians also know that that God knows about nature vs nature and that in spite of this he made no exceptions in reference to bestiality, spiritistic practices incest and homosexuality.
Furthermore we are told to pay close attention to what was written instead of ignoring or attempting to modify it so that our conduct is no longer condemned.:
Jeremiah 10:23: I well know, O Jehovah, that to earthling man his way does not belong. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step.
Pro 3:5- lean not on your own understanding, trust with all your heart on Jehovah.
2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right.
Now, in view of this, if indeed I felt that a religion condemns a behavior that I am unwilling to refrain from because I consider it normal, then I would simply reject the book that condemns it and seek or write one one that approves of it.
It's like the Islamic prohibition against pork. If I am unwilling to abide by it-then Islam is obviously not for me. Arguing with Moslems that they should eat pork or ignore the prohibition against it would only involve me in endless fruitless arguments that would get me nowhere.
BTW
On whether the clergy be they Catholic or Protestant approve or dissaprove whatever they choose whenever they choose, that's neither here nor there since it doesn't change what the Bible originally tells us. It merely expresses their opinion which has been known to even have entailed approval of persecution, torture and burning people alive. In short, clergy are similar to a cunning politicians who always tests the winds of popular public sentiments and utterr what they think gains public approval.
There is a difference between believing the Bible, and believing it's all literal. Jesus most certainly used tons of metaphor and allegory. Most Jews take Genesis metaphorically. All Christians cherry pick Bible verses they agree with, and ignore the ones they don't want to deal with. For example, you see gays condemned constantly using leviticus, and yet Leviticus also tells us to stone children to death, and kill Sabbath breakers (which is all Christians). They claim Paul condemns gays, and yet Jesus said not a word about them. He did, however, say a lot about divorce and adultery - both of which are rampant among Christians.
Gays are attacked not because the Bible condemns them, but because they are an easy target since most Christians will never personally be faced with that challenge. Keep in mind, blacks, Jews, and women have all been discriminated against and oppressed by Christians using the Bible as justification.
And anyone who believes the Bible is the Word of God is committing the sin of idolatry. The Bible is a book, not God. John 1 specifically states Jesus is the Word. Jesus is not the Bible.
I know for a fact it is something one is born with, or at the very least, is developed at such a young age that no conscious decision is ever made about it. Science seems to support this conclusion based on hormonal changes in pre-natal development and the fact that gays have similar brain structure to the opposite sex, not the same-sex (i.e. gay men have brain sizes comparable to straight women). And when did you choose to be straight? I seriously doubt you woke up one day and said "Hmm, I think I'll be attracted to men for the rest of my life - that sounds like a good idea". There are also plenty of gay Christians who have prayed to God for decades for him to change their orientation. He doesn't do it. If it's such the abomination Christians make it out to be, why doesn't God help those faithful believers who want to change it?
1 Chronicles 16:30: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable.” (The earth moves. It rotates, revolves, and shakes).
Isaiah 40:22 He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in. (And before you claim a circle refers to a sphere, it doesn't. A circle is 2 dimensional, and the Earth isn't a circle or a sphere. A canopy also would not fit on a spherical body).
Joshua 10:13 So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, till the nation avenged itself on its enemies, as it is written in the Book of Jashar. The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day. (The sun doesn't move in relation to our days. The Earth's rotation affects the days. To be accurate, this verse would have to say the Earth stopped rotating.)
Daniel 4:11The tree grew large and strong and its top touched the sky; it was visible to the ends of the earth. (Can't see a tree from the ends of the earth. Earth has no ends. Why would Daniel dream about this conception of the Earth?)
Luke 4:5And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
This is how the ancient Hebrews viewed the Earth. This is a literal Biblical view.
Generally no due to the possibility of genetic deformities. Depends on how close the relatives are. Incest was certainly permissible in Genesis though, so I'm not sure the point.
If you're willing to be somewhat open minded we can. I've spent too much time trying to explain the gay clobber passages to people who ignore any evidence and basically say nuh uh. It gets frustrating.
Hi. Thank you for taking the time to answer my post. I don't have time right now to address each of your points, but I will later. For now I would like you to know that I have never attacked a gay person. Matter of fact, I do not like to judge or be judged by people. I am not qualified to do that. I let the scriptures speak for themselves and let people make their own choices. Each of us has to give an account of himself/herself in the end. If I have come across as attacking, I apologize. Just so you understand though, I do believe what the scriptures say, and will use them in our discussion.
Katie
Amen. It is like all the people addicted to heroin. We love the people but believe the drug, misused, is horrible. We feel for those drug addicts because we know their addiction might end in death.
Exactly!
I have family & friends with homosexual tendencies, who I love & respect as individuals, not for their preferences for sexual partners. Those who I've come close to, I've discovered had some type of sexual or other abuse that created an aversion to the opposite sex. A councilor I know, confirmed this tendency in her homosexual clients.
It's not that I want to make their life hell by bringing up all these health concerns & statistics. It's because I care about people, especially vulnerable children, who are being fed lies about homosexuality.
Denverian,
I'm happy for you that you are the exception to the statistics. Although I care about you, as I would any stranger on the internet, - I won't pretend people are born with preferences that go against their anatomical nature.
IMO, Claiming you're "born that way" is a cop-out for searching your soul for why you're thinking & feeling contrary to nature.
When it comes to genes & heredity, the predominant medical field has wanted to push the idea that we are born a certain way & there's nothing we can do about it... except buy all of their meds to cope with it. It's been known for a while, (although only recently publicized more)... that we are NOT born with most acquired diseases or abnormalities. Although some have genes more susceptible to certain issues, about 95% of genes are born healthy. What happens between being born with healthy genes & developing unhealthy issues? The environment within us, affects our genes and cells by either nurturing or stress... facilitated by thoughts. Thoughts are powerful! Of course experience is also powerful! Then what we think & feel about experiences adds to influence.
For more info...
Where Mind and Matter Meet - Dr. Bruce Lipton
Why don't you give me your best Biblical contradiction. And lets see how much of a contradition it really is. Chapter and verse please. Scripture tells us there is a way that seems right to a man. Yet often that way leads to death. Depending on feelings is not a good way to approach life. And often such human feelings will direct you down the wrong path. The Bible is not a book that you can white out the sections you don't want to believe, and accept the sections you do. Either it is the full truth. Or it is just one big lie.
Ooh!! Campbell, thanks for the great idea! Let's start a new thread about it though, ok?
Hey, Campbell - I just started a new thread, "Rethinking Scriptures." I'd like to know what you think, when you get a chance.
Last edited by SuperSoul; 05-11-2011 at 12:00 PM..
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........because I am not tolerant of intolerance and intellectual ignorance.
catechism
- I won't pretend people are born with preferences that go against their anatomical nature. 