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No it's not analogous at all because prohibitions on interracial relationships are discouraged in the Bible (See Moses and his wife) and only arose as a reaction to slavery among Northern Europeans. Spanish colonialism, even though it had slavery, did not have that kind of anti-miscegenation rule. Neither did Portuguese.
That is not my point, my point is that just because verses are used a certain way does not mean it truthfully applies to what it is being used for.
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And translation issues aside you don't seem to have any concrete evidence Christianity was ever okay with homosexuality because there really is no such evidence.
What Christianity was ever ok with or not ok with is irrelevant to the issue. If Christianity has always been against homosexuality, that doesn't mean homosexuality is wrong.
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You've shown evidence of mistranslations in the Bible, but do you have any evidence Jews or early Christian actually accepted or even tolerated homosexuality?
Not sure of the relevance you trying to get at here, what Jews or early Christians tolerated or didn't tolerate is irrelevant to something being true about scripture.
The people at Carm have no idea what they are talking about, they are saying that regaurdless of the sexual organs that the hermaphrodites dominate gender is based on physical appearance. That is not a solution, that is dancing around the issue. It plays upon the old traditions that males must act a certain way and females must act a certain way.
Fact is what a person looks like has nothing to do with being male or female and sice hermaphrodites have both sex organs, some even with the ability to impregnate themseves, that article does not clear up the problem at all.
But you are correct in one aspect, the hermaphrodite does have a solution, the solution is that the bible speaks of how they should love and treat one another so who they end up with as a partner for life is not really something they nor anyone else needs to be concern with on the level of scripture.
Plato has everything to do with that verse. And it's so very obvious, no matter how much you claim to read the Bible you haven't the foggiest clue as to its meaning. Romans 1 is a direct reference to Plato's discourse on unbridled passion. Paul's audience would have been well familiar with Plato's discourse, where as 99.9% of Christians today, are not.
And that verse doesn't need to explicitly state prostitution. Read the previous verses:
Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
That is referring to pagan worship, because Greek and Romans worshipped pagan animals. And what was the overwhelmingly predominant form of same sex behavior in Greek and Roman society? Pagan prostitution and pederasty. Most of Greek and Roman society was not gay, they were heterosexuals. That was Paul's audience. Do you seriously think Paul's entire (or even majority audience) was gay? That is 100% wrong, since gays have always made up the same percentage of the population. Meaning at most, 5% of Paul's audience was gay. Paul, citing Plato's idea of unbridled passion, was criticizing the heterosexual Greeks and Romans for their pagan sexual obsessions, as it clouded their pursuit of the truth of God. For that, God allowed heterosexuals to start engaging in sex acts with each other, men with men, women with women, which for an inborn heterosexual, was not normal.
I'm frankly getting tired of having to explain this stuff over and over and over again. Stop assuming the Bible was written in English and addressed to Americans in the 21st Century United States Campbell. That verse was addressed to Greeks and Romans, in 1st Century Corinth, and it was written in Greek, which is very very different from English.
Corinthians had an entirely different culture than Americans. That verse is not applicable to modern day society.
Again you are using as secular source to explain away Scripture. Which comes as no surprise. And Paul was not citing Plato. Where do you get this nonsense from? Who told you Paul was refering to Plato? If anything, Paul was confirming the Old Testament. Leviticus 18:22 Thou shall not lay with a man as one would lay with a woman. And the reason you believe the Bible was not adressing all people. Is because you want to limit it's laws to the few. And not yourself. The Bibles message is for all mankind, and not just a select few. I must say, I have never seen such delusion. You simply insert unfounded stories to explain away the obvious. WOW!
Yes Paul adressed pagan worship. However as punishment Scripture tells us God allowed these men and woman to give themselves over to evil. And that evil was woman having sex with other women, and men having sex with other men. Do you really believe it was only wrong back then? It has nothing to do with the culture, it has everything to do with the act itself. Your trying to make this a culture arguement, while ignoring that the Bible is telling you that woman having sex with woman and men having sex with other men is evil. The reality is not only do you believe the verse in question is not applicable to modern day society. I believe you do not believe the Bible is applicable to modern day society. And the Bible tells us, that men in the future would deny the word of God. It tells us they would love their sin, more than God's truth. And I believe you are fulfilling that passage.
to the contrary. romans 1:26 'for this reason (previously mentioned) god gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27] and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penaly of their error. the passage up to this point is talking about homosexual behavior. The passage goes on to describe other sins.
No matter how you try to slice it, women lying with women, and men lying with men is homosexual behavior and it is a sin. The only natural sexual relationship which the bible recognizes is a heterosexual one (gen 2:21-24; matt 19:4-6) within marriage. All homosexual relationships constitute sexual perversion and are subject to god's judgment.
God condemns homosexuality. And romans 1:26-27 is one such passage which makes that clear.
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Originally Posted by antredd
wow! I think you nailed it.
I believe so. The Bible is so obvious that homosexual behaviior is a sin, and that it is an abomination, that no honest person can truthfuly deny it.
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Originally Posted by fiyero
whatever mike. Your clear lack of education and pure bigotry are quite evident in your posts. I'm not going to waste my time explaining why your hatred is unfounded.
What lack of education would that be? Lack of education concerning homosexuals? Not a subject that I would be interested in.
Acusations of bigotry and of hatred? Because of stating what the Bible says, and agreeing with it? Homosexual behavior whether it's men with men, or men with boys - Pederasty, or women with women is unnatural, and is a sin.
Leviticus 18 is a prohibition against immoral relations. It starts off with incestuous relationships [V 6-18]. It talks about adultery in verse 20. It talks about homosexual behavior in verse 22 'You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination (toebah - something disgusting (morally)). Then it talks about sex with animals in verse 23.
And don't use the Mosaic Law as an excuse. Leviticus 18:24 states quite clearly that these things which God forbade Israel to do were practiced by the nations which God was casting out before Israel. Homosexual behavior is prohibited in the New Testament as well.
If you preferred having sex with animals would you deny that the Bible prohibits beastiality? That it calls it a perversion? (Leviticus 18:23)
The Bible is fictional because it has not been proven to be fact? Because something has not been proven does not make it fictional. And the fact is, the Bible is filled with facts. And since when is someone guilty of discrimination, only because they believe the Bible?
Alright.
A mouse just walked up to me and told me to get rid of my cat because he'd like to have free range of my house.
I have no way to prove that just happened, and science tells us mice don't usually speak to humans, BUT HEY! According to you things don't have to be proven to be factual! So, I guess that really did just happen!!
See the flaw in your logic there?
I never said because you believe in the bible you're guilty of discrimination, you're guilty of discrimination when you try to hinder the rights of others because of YOUR beliefs.
If you want religion to speak for your country move to the Middle East.
In many many cases, the Bible is just telling you the way it is. Period, case closed.
You cannot stick your dingaling into another man's hairy rectal region for biological reasons on top of the immorality. Biologically, the rectum is not as elastic and lubricated as a female's vagina. A vagina is capable of passing a live child through it.
The rectum is a place where your stools collect into a lump of feces. If you cause abrasions to that tissue, you expose your blood to a whole host and plethora of toxic material. Your body uses your GI tract to absorb nutrients and pass through the garbage. It really is a work of art! A miracle, shall we say.
A vagina is connected to the uterus wherein a child will grow. The environment in there is perfectly suited to support a new baby. And a baby is the result of a MAN and a WOMAN having vaginal sex. See? Man and woman get together, and the result is life. Man and man get together and the result is death.
"Well we have drugs to take care of that" you say. Does that mean it's natural??
Anal sex, whether heterosexually or homosexually results in exposure to disease. The proper term for anal sex is "sodomy", and can take place between man and man, or man and woman. Look, whether you think you're gay, or whether you're straight, it doesn't matter, just don't stick your thingy in the tight end! Wow, I can't believe you gays can't see the biological proof! All you gays eventually end up with colorectal cancer and need a baggie to poop out of your tummy because you ruined your rectum. Wow, can we really be this ignorant?
By the way, for those who believe it's genetic, look, it's con-genetic, meaning you feel the way you do because of your parent's poor nutrition during pregnancy. It's the same for clubbed feet, facial disfigurements. A wonderful thing happens during the first 56 days of life...you develop all your body parts and if you don't have enough zinc at the right time, your pallette fails to close! Or fail to have enough selenium and something happens. I didn't expect too many people to know this last paragraph. You should read "Dead Doctors Don't Lie", and "Hell's Kitchen", both by Joel Wallach. You need to have good nutrition before, during and after conception to have a proper and normal straight baby with all body parts intact. God did not create disfigurements, man did.
A mouse just walked up to me and told me to get rid of my cat because he'd like to have free range of my house.
I have no way to prove that just happened, and science tells us mice don't usually speak to humans, BUT HEY! According to you things don't have to be proven to be factual! So, I guess that really did just happen!!
See the flaw in your logic there?
I never said because you believe in the bible you're guilty of discrimination, you're guilty of discrimination when you try to hinder the rights of others because of YOUR beliefs.
If you want religion to speak for your country move to the Middle East.
Of coures you have taken it to the extream. Many other examples could be given that would confirm what I have stated. However as I have already said many times before. The Bible continues to be confirmed by facts that are found within it's pages. I have never tried to hinder the rights of others. I have only expressed what the Bible so clearly teaches us. I don't expect my faith to speak for my country. I expect my country to ignore the Bible. And that is why the Bible tells us God will judge American and her people. America's days are coming to an end. And Scripture tells us everything here in the states will end in one hours time.
In many many cases, the Bible is just telling you the way it is. Period, case closed.
You cannot stick your dingaling into another man's hairy rectal region for biological reasons on top of the immorality. Biologically, the rectum is not as elastic and lubricated as a female's vagina. A vagina is capable of passing a live child through it.
The rectum is a place where your stools collect into a lump of feces. If you cause abrasions to that tissue, you expose your blood to a whole host and plethora of toxic material. Your body uses your GI tract to absorb nutrients and pass through the garbage. It really is a work of art! A miracle, shall we say.
A vagina is connected to the uterus wherein a child will grow. The environment in there is perfectly suited to support a new baby. And a baby is the result of a MAN and a WOMAN having vaginal sex. See? Man and woman get together, and the result is life. Man and man get together and the result is death.
"Well we have drugs to take care of that" you say. Does that mean it's natural??
Anal sex, whether heterosexually or homosexually results in exposure to disease. The proper term for anal sex is "sodomy", and can take place between man and man, or man and woman. Look, whether you think you're gay, or whether you're straight, it doesn't matter, just don't stick your thingy in the tight end! Wow, I can't believe you gays can't see the biological proof! All you gays eventually end up with colorectal cancer and need a baggie to poop out of your tummy because you ruined your rectum. Wow, can we really be this ignorant?
By the way, for those who believe it's genetic, look, it's con-genetic, meaning you feel the way you do because of your parent's poor nutrition during pregnancy. It's the same for clubbed feet, facial disfigurements. A wonderful thing happens during the first 56 days of life...you develop all your body parts and if you don't have enough zinc at the right time, your pallette fails to close! Or fail to have enough selenium and something happens. I didn't expect too many people to know this last paragraph. You should read "Dead Doctors Don't Lie", and "Hell's Kitchen", both by Joel Wallach. You need to have good nutrition before, during and after conception to have a proper and normal straight baby with all body parts intact. God did not create disfigurements, man did.
Hope it helps
Joe
The problem is that again the thread title is true, homosexuals and heterosexuals would be wise to refrain from sexual activities that include the rectum, the instruction in leviticus has nothing to do with homosexuality being wrong.
There are many practicing homosexuals that do not have anal sex therefore the verse in leviticus cannot be used against them.
The problem is that again the thread title is true, homosexuals and heterosexuals would be wise to refrain from sexual activities that include the rectum, the instruction in leviticus has nothing to do with homosexuality being wrong.
There are many practicing homosexuals that do not have anal sex therefore the verse in leviticus cannot be used against them.
Exactly, not to mention it never condemns Lesbians. Either way, it's not a blanket condemnation on homosexuality. And considering how Christians ignore almost every other Torah law, I don't get why this one carries so much weight, aside from blatant hypocrisy.
Exactly, not to mention it never condemns Lesbians. Either way, it's not a blanket condemnation on homosexuality. And considering how Christians ignore almost every other Torah law, I don't get why this one carries so much weight, aside from blatant hypocrisy.
Glad you brought that up. Sodomy carries so much weight in the eyes of man. In reality (by Yahweh's standards), theft is just as bad and we ought to condemn theft as much as we condemn sodomy. I know there are many upstanding sodomites. I would not be rude to them. I don't want to hang out with them, but I won't be rude either. Instead, as believers, we ought to show our goodwill to them as well, seeing that the temple is no more and the priesthood has been set aside until the true King and High Priest returns, we cannot convict them in a court of law for public stoning. Neither can we condemn adulterers for public stoning. That will be something Yeshua himself will come and do at some point in the future. Point is, although no one is justified by his works according to the law of Moses, (but by faith AND works he is justified...not by faith alone - James) practicing that law barring the priestly ordinances BENEFITS you. In the here and now. Practicing sodomy is a hinderance to you. In the here and now. Let's deal with eternal salvation separately. Today, right now, you Joe sixpack will benefit from practicing this law which was given to Moses, right here on earth while you are alive today. No need to wait forever. Now, once you can get to this point, then let's talk about eternity. For now, let's just recognize that male/male female/female sexual relations is an exercise in futility. You cannot get two bolts to fasten anything, and neither can you get two nuts to fasten anything. Let's use our God given logic!
And while we're at it, if you are a thief, QUIT STEALING! Sheesh! And if you are cheating on your spouse, QUIT IT! If you are eating pork, QUIT IT NOW! Just my humble suggestion, sorry for the all caps.
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